Ravines Trustee meets with Residents

Marsha;

What a mess for the residents. A real understatement, I know. I've read quite a bit about the mess there. It always sounded to me like Ken may have been mislead from the get go about what could and could not be done with that open piece of land.

That, or he just assumed that he could ram a change down everyone's throats like many developers do. Big mistake on his part. He obviously didn't think it through when he p@##*& off the residents. Especially when he kicked many club members out for disagreeing with him.

I would have thought that the Trustee would have found a resident's advocate to work with to get both sides of the story. But then, I assume that he is a lawyer, so that leaves common sense out of the equation. If he is not a lawyer then he perhaps has had a lobotomy to remove that portion of the thought process.

I hate it when someone use "you people". To me it is the epitome of arrogance. Like everyone there is a second class citizen. It's like they think you should be thankful that they have even deigned to speak to you let alone be in the same room.

Hopefully, things can be worked out to the best advantage for all. It would certainly not be good for them to sell off the course and try to put more houses where fairways used to be. I would expect that the home owners would rather see it remain a golf course and be put back into operation. I'm not a resident ther so I certainly would not deem myself qualified to make recommendations as to the final solution.

However, as a home owner at another golf course I hope that things work out for all the residents.

Finder

Finder,

Yes, the Trustee is an Attorney (who had his own Attorney present) he is one of 7 Trustees for the Bankruptcy Court according to him.  You are very correct when you used the word "arrogant" 

I won't presume to know what Ken Debusks knowledge or intent was (even though I have an opinion on it) however "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse"  What is written within the documentation clearly states that it is to remain a golf course "into perpetuity" unless 75% of the residents vote to change it and that WILL NEVER happen.  Even those who don't play golf and couldn't care less aren't going to be in favor of enlarging the PUD with residential development. 

It would be a travesty for some of the most naturally beautiful land in the state to be raped by residential development.   

There are alot of people out there who believe that the fiasco here in the Ravines has nothing to do with them and that is where they're wrong.  Between the revenues that are being lost that will only continue to increase any homeowner who buys into a Deed Restricted Community needs to be concerned as well.  Where do you think the county is going to go for more money?  If what was designed to protect and preserve this community is rendered null and void then every other Community out there is at risk as well whether you have a Golf Course or not. 

If I were a Judge I would take serious issue with someone running their mouths telling people "The Judge will do what I tell him to do" 

Excellent stuff Marsha, but it is sure depressing to read. You are 100% correct that it affects every body. Not that blame is of any importance right now, I stiil think the Co. and especially the BCC is much to blame in this disaster. No body stands up for anything any more and commttments all over the county aren't being honored. I think any re-plat of a subdivision should require a vote of the existing residents. I can't believe that the golf course would bring anything mear 3-4 million. If in fact it can't be used for anything else (WHICH SHOULD BE THE CASE) high bid may be a bargain.

 “You people” kill me. Let’s see if I get this right. You fought the owner, because he wanted to build a few more homes and change the layout of a couple golf holes. You complained too much traffic and how could anyone change a golf course/ Well a few homes wouldn’t add that much traffic and golf courses change their layouts all the time. Before you try to attack me on the traffic I have driven down highway 18 and have noticed all the new developments going up.
Second you say that the rest of us should be concerned about your plight that you brought on yourself  as the county is going to lose  tax income and the rest of us will have to make up for it. Has your tax bill gone down? I don’t think so. Do you expect the taxpayers to buy your golf course and put it back together for you? If it is as great as you say (more than once) why don’t you and the rest of the owners of the homes and condos buy the property and put it back into operation? Why must someone else pay to support your lifestyle and your property value? This is your problem and the other home owners not the rest of the taxpayers of the county. One last thing you people had a meeting with the trustee and you did not have your own spokesperson just how much can you people care?

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

It's been at least two weeks since someone came in here with a nasty attitude that is incapable of civil conversation so I guess we're overdue.  It takes so little character to be mean and petty, you've alot to be proud of.

1. The residents exercised their LEGAL RIGHTS to oppose additional development on a built out PUD, and Covenants & Deeds that were IN PLACE LONG AGO protecting that golf course from being changed.   If it were in your back yard it would probably be different huh?  Are you suggesting that people not exercise their rights?  Surprising considering your little quote at the bottom of your blog.

2. The only traffic anyone is complaining about is inside of the community, get your criticisms straight.  I guess speeding issues and the safety of the kids in the community are just meaningless to you.

3. No one has ever suggested that the taxpayers of Clay County do anything to resolve the issue in anyway shape, form or fashion I don't know where you pulled that one from.  Loss of tax revenue on this level effects the County, simple straight forward logic that should not be difficult to understand, even my teenagers get that.  Saying that people within the community should care because it ultimately effects everyone is not asking for a bailout. 

4. Our tax bill HAS GONE DOWN,  so YOU'RE WRONG! It's been estimated that within the entire community there has been a loss of tens of millions of dollars in property values. 

5. It was an open forum with everyone able to speak to the Trustee, suggesting a spokesperson should have been place rather then people speaking for themselves really makes alot of sense.....NOT!

6. Last but not least, yes, lets blame the community for expecting what they bought into rather then the man who ran it into the ground out of spite because he didn't get what he wanted.  Then again based upon the tone of your blog perhaps you're just part of the Debusk Fan Club which would explain the insulting tone of your blog.

You're way off base, in more ways then one cupcake.

Marsha;

Wow! Sounds like you might have given old FTD a wedgie. If the blogger doesn't live there, they are way over the top. If they do, obviously they were on the owner's side.

It was my understanding that Debusk made the comment that he bought the place with the idea of building more new homes. If that is the case, he made a big mistake. He did not do his homework on the legalities of doing so, or the wishes of the community.

If I remember correctly, the course was up for auction when he decided to go with the bankruptcy idea. To me this sounded like a very vindictive move. Seems to me, it was done as more of a punishment than a truly smart business move.

If FTD doesn't think the value of that course has went down and therefore the tax revenue coming from it has diminished considerably then I'm at a loss to explain the math. In addition, if I'm not mistaken (and I know I'm not) we collected sales tax on everything (including membership dues) that went through that clubhouse.

I just love it when someone makes asinine comments like FTDs that the residents caused all of these problems. If he went to a car dealer and paid for a top of the line Mercedes and they delivered a Ford Focus, I don't think he would stand by and accept it. The residents of the Ravines bought an advertised product for a fair price. So did Mr. Debusk. Unfortunately Mr. Debusk wanted to pay for a Focus and get a Mercedes. He knew up front the profit margins and cash flow of the course. If he didn't, shame on him. It is not the residents' fault that he bet on the come and lost.

FTD apparently hasn't thought about the revenue lost due to closing the course, and the revenue lost to lowered property values. Everyone in the community and the county is paying for this in one way or another. Everyone that is, except Mr. Debusk. He just walked away and left the mess for someone else to clean up.

Finder

According to the Clay County Property Appraiser’s office the Just Value of a golf course lot, including those along the old Par 3, has dropped from $60,000 to $50.000.

If you invested in a golf course lot and did your due diligence in regard to the so-called legal documents that state that the golf course shall always be a golf course, then a Developer should not be able to come in and dismantle your sole investment while he creates his vision and then moves on to his next of many.  

Considering the earlier post from FTD, they seem to have the impression that everyone in the community is wealthy.  I would venture to say that most of them are living in their only home, not their vacation home.  Either way they laid down their money and do everything possible to keep their own property in top condition; they expected to drive to the golf course in a golf cart instead of a car and they expected to enjoy the fruits of their labor.   If FTD can be so hard-hearted that they cannot see this, they must be one of those rare individuals that have never faced a financial or emotional loss and cannot relate.  Surely you can see how this would affect someone who needed to move or needed a loan?  It is somewhat like putting your money in the bank for the future and when it is time to make a withdrawal you discover someone else had reduced the balance of your account.  It seems equal to theft. 

Finder,

I don't disagree with any of your suppositions regarding Ken DeBusk at all, it was just my intent to blog about the Trustee and the meeting that took place which I attended.  I have really strong feelings about the prior owners intent and actions but I have tried to keep them at a minimum because I have no desire to trash the man, there is nothing positive to be gained from it.  I never personally crossed paths with the man but a few times and to be honest he was never anything but polite and kind.

Any business must be maintained, money must be put back into it just like a homeowner does with a home or it falls into disrepair.  When you are sucking it all out for other things and put nothing back the business will decline.  It takes alot of money to prepare for development, plats, legal fees etc.  If you choose a standard of living that is not supported by the profit margins that will also suck a business dry.

My husband has a Masters Degree in Business, and as an Entrepreneur has a tremendous amount of business acumen. He and some of his partners tried to buy the course, he's seen the books and has had access to things that the general public or even other residents hasn't had.  Before the offer was made a Business Analysis was done and if the course was a losing proposition with a reasonable debt service the offer never would have been made.   If your goal is to develop then the appearance of a course that cannot perform profitably in theory should further that cause, in this case that theory failed and/or was made moot by legalities that were already in place long ago.  This is where I got my information about the collective loss to both the residents and the county.  Several months ago my husband calculated the loss based upon the property values alone and came up with an approximate figure of 58 million dollars.  Imagine how that translates into tax dollars lost.  That also does not take into consideration the loss of revenue from the resort.

I know for some it's a tired issue, people grow bored so easily and to those people I can only ask for their tolerance and invite them to ignore the blog.  It's a saga that is not over and there is alot more to it then a lifestyle or a standard of living. 

There is alot of discussion here about people not being involved in what is going on around them.  As a whole this community has only done what we should all do, and that is to be involved and take proactive measures to do what they believe is the right thing to do, and have exercised their rights.  To find fault with that flies in the face of everything this country was founded upon.  One should never wager with something they cannot afford to lose.  On the bottom line that is what has happened.  Ken Debusk gambled, and he lost, and now many will suffer for that wager.

It's my opinion the system is being used for payback, I can only pray that the Judge will think for himself and render what is just.  I will however predict that there will be no sale that will cover that debt.  In top notch condition the course would still not be worth the 4-5 million dollars that is being sought for the company's debt. Eventually it will go back to the Bank and they will sell it for what it's worth and then the resort will begin the long journey back to what it once was.  If anything good has come out of all this it is probably the reality that anyone who might be inclined to follow in Ken Debusks footsteps will probably think more then twice knowing that the residents will not go quietly into the night and roll over and play dead so hopefully this does not happen again.  

Marsha:

Although we have had a few discussions on the Ravines, I am profoundly saddened for all the residents in the Ravines. There is nothing more disheartening than to see one's major investment (your home) lose value because of circumstances beyond their control. I can tell you this, based on my own experience in Clay county, don't think for a moment that the document declaring the perpetuity of a golf course can't be altered by the powers that be, or ones that come into being in the future.

I will comment on my own little adventure with development on Fleming Island. Our home is or rather was, located next to a nature conservancy. It was wonderful having a back yard adjacent to such a beautiful natural setting. About 5 years ago, I looked out my backyard window and I saw a huge bulldozer clearing everything in sight. To say I was alarmed was an understatement. I waited until the machine operator stopped and I went over to talk to him. I asked him what in the world he was doing. He proceeded to tell me. The land behind my home had been mitigated. A developer about 2 miles north of my home was developing some wetlands, and the area behind my home was going to be the home of the new wetland.

The value of the other property, when developed, exceeded the cost of converting property behind my home to a wetland. Pure and simple, economics. They bulldozed everything, then proceeded to haul dirt out for days, creating a huge hole in the ground of about 5-7acres. Then, they hauled a different kind of dirt back in for days. The dirt was graded and cypress trees planted. Instead of a nature area, I now looked at a huge treeless plain with some stick trees in the ground. Only it wasn't a wetland, just a huge dust bowl. Then came the storms of a couple of years ago. After those, I had waterfront property for about 6 months. You could water ski in this man made lake. Fast forward two years, and I am back in the dust bowl.

I can only imagine that in a few years, some engineer and the SJWMD will come along and reclassify the area behind my home as "not a wetland." You and both know when this happens, an amendment to the comprehensive plan will be made to make the property behind my home suitable for development. Hey, the property fronts US 17 and is adjacent to a commercial development in progress, I can see the $$ in Rogers eyes already.

The area to the south behind my home is currently under development as a Publix. If you have driven by the area and wonder about the gigantic hole in the ground where a supermarket is to stand, take note. In order to build there, (right in the middle of a drainage area for the center of FI) they have to put a water vault under the store. From what I gather it has to hold all the runoff from the "100 years storm" we might one day have. I don't know what will happen if we have the "150 year storm", but I suspect Margaret's Walk will have some great boat slips next to their homes, and their roads will become canals. Hibernia Road will become a canal leading to the St. Johns, and I hope the Publix has a Venetian decor.

The only thing about development is that things change. No home or area is safe from big money and the ability to do what big money does. Do I sound cynical, you bet. I imagine that many of the residents in the Ravines share my cynicism. Ravine residents, keep the good fight!

Islander,

I'm sorry to say your story does not surprise me. Although it's commercial development which I'm not sure HTD will effect in it's essence it's a prime example of why the average citizen should have a say in what goes on in their immediate area.

In 1994 I purchased a lot in Orange Park South based upon the sole criteria that the lot would not be adjacent to any drainage ditches or rention ponds. I had two girls in diapers.  Before construction was complete a drainage ditch showed up.  I couldn't afford to back out and lose the money it would have cost me, didn't have the money to hire an Attorney if it would even have done any good.  All I got out of it was that the builder agreed to install a fence on his tab.

The entire wetlands issues in development worries me, when you screw with the natural order of things there is normally a price to pay.  I was told that OPS was once wetlands/swamp, In the 13yrs that I have owned it that lot has had drainage problems, I think that little piece of land is only "doing what comes naturally" New Orleans is a prime example of that. Anyone with deep enough pockets can develop wetlands.  You gave the perfect example of two types of wetlands, many don't realize this, and there are actually three.   One exists naturally, some are formed as a result of development around them and some are created to compensate for the loss of a wetlands in some other part of the state. 

Another example of somethings not meant to be....beachfront property.  I feel really bad for homeowners whose homes are in danger due to beach erosion, at the same time inside my head I am thinking "silly goose what did you expect, that something in its very nature that shifts continously was going to hold still because you built a house on it?" 

I feel bad for your rude awakening, anytime someone tells you that you're on a "Preserve Lot" or that there is a conservation area you need to realize odds are it won't stay that way.  It's a marketing tool that means nothing over the long haul. 

It is very sad that the Ravines has fallen into disrepair.  Sad for the residents and sad for Clay County.  I mean that.  The way I see it is that the residents gambled, too, by fighting the golf course owner and villifying him.  The residents gambled that he was bluffing when he said the golf course could not survive without changing its configuration and adding houses.  It turns out he wasn't bluffing, and everyone lost. Golf courses lose money in Florida.  Look around. 

It's hard to admit that mistakes were made by everyone, but the hard, sad truth is that the residents messed up too.  They played hard ball and lost.  Now the community is losing value fast.  

Maybe the lesson here is to keep an open mind and be flexible in life.  Not everything is black and white.  Maybe the golf course owner wasn't completely evil, just misguided in some of his decisions, and maybe the residents weren't completely right and just in their cause.  Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

As for the Trustee, his job is to maximize the asset, nothing else.  If you were a creditor, you would hope that he wouldn't be concerned about anything else. 

Great contribution in a fair and civil manner Stan, thanks to you and all who participate in this same way. 

Greed causes people to do things that will increase themselves and decrease others. The Ravines Golf idea was to create “family” wealth at the expense of the others in the community, plain and simple; there are plenty of publicly accessible comments by Ken DeBusk which confirm this original plan.

Greed causes one to think about themselves and not anyone else, re:

1)    the community's loss as a whole for the increased wealth of the "family"

2)    the club members whose memberships were terminated

3)    the Zastrow/Leese couple whose $600 deposit was accepted for clubhouse “wedding party” use – only to be refused a refund following club closing

4)    the Dunbar Reunion party whose $400 deposit was not refunded following the closing of the club

  There’s nothing wrong with increasing ones wealth through means consistant with integrity, honesty, respect, compassion and professional and personal ethics, but by doing so with selfish "greed driven" intentions (lying, cheating, bullying, malice, lack of compassion, egotistical, rapacious, vindictiveness, etc)  is destructive in so many ways.  

Not everything is black and white – but the destruction that greed causes certainly is.

Bob,

As a footnote to your blog let me add that it was some of the Residents of the Ravines who stepped up to the plate so gallantly to provide that young couple a nice wedding.

There are certainly self centered people in every community. But the fact that there were a group within the Ravines that got involved and made not only a positive contribution to right a wrong, but also a lifetime of memories for two people indicates to me that perhaps the residents as a whole have been misjudged by some.

In the end the Ravines may be better off for this mess.  Perhaps it will bring an increase of solid and lasting unity to the community. 

Excerpt from a story about South Florida.  There is no land shortage in Middleburg, is there?

                                                                          Greens Versus Green
“Lately not a lot of people have been joining clubs, leaving multiple vacancies. And clubs need to keep full memberships in order to keep their dues structures down.”

For both private and public courses, the costs of fertilizer, water and chemicals to maintain the greens keep rising, Gigliotti adds.

Rising costs and falling memberships have led many course owners to try to rezone their land for residential development, he explains. “A lot of them are in places where the alternative use of the land is a heck of a lot better than as a golf course,” he says. “To sell it to a developer demands a very high price, so if they are nearing retirement, they are looking at maximizing their retirement dollars.”

But getting a golf course re-zoned for residential is challenging. In most instances the neighbors oppose the conversions, Kasdin says. Developers then have a long community relations process to win them over.

“This assures [residents] that there would be adequate green space and certain limits on the amount of development,” he says, adding those that have succeeded have had significant interaction with surrounding communities.

In Palm Beach County, for instance, zoning commissioners and the county commission voted to allow developer Charlse Watt Communities to build 130 additional condominiums on part of a golf course in Boca Lago Country Club. An Oct. 6 article in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported that the club says the aging of members was crippling memberships, and those buying homes in the new development will be required to join the club (membership for residents is currently voluntary). Watt will pay $20.5 million for 24 acres of land — far more than a non-rezoned golf course would fetch, according to Gigliotti.

The zoning board of the southwestern Miami-Dade city of Westchester approved a similar conversion in April. Shoma Homes plans to develop 1,836 townhomes, condominiums and apartment units on 277 acres of land that was formerly the public Fontainebleau Golf Club.

The Country Club of Coral Springs is in negotiations with Bonita Springs-based WCI Communities Inc. to exchange land for residential development, says Michael O’Brien, general manager of the Fort Lauderdale Country Club in Plantation. Woodmont Country Club in Tamarac has asked the city for permission to have a partner develop a flagship hotel on its property, in hopes of injecting life back into that club.

In addition, Williams Island in Aventura and Raintree Golf Resort in Pembroke Pines have been rezoned for 100 percent residential development.

“They obviously see there would be profit in residential development — that is why they do it,” Gunster Yoakley’s Kasdin says. “But it’s made more valuable by the fact that there is a lack of residential space. … So in the last few years there has been some high-end golf course development associated with residential or hotel development.”

But some in the industry expect to see few private clubs become residential developments. “The members build friendships, and most are avid golfers — contrary to a public owner in it for business,” O’Brien says. “When the dollars and cents flip because the real estate value may be too enticing, [public course owners] make a business decision. … There is a little less loyalty to the customer.”

Marsha,

Yes, the Ravines Community (not including "that" family) did very well in the act of kindness and compassion for that young couple. Good things from compassionate people sometimes happen following the selfish acts of others.