HDA is officially dead...

Florida Divisions of Elections at http://election.dos.date.fl.us/initiatives/initiativeslist.asp states the 'Currently verified totals are unofficial until the initiative receives certification and a ballot number".

Div. of Elections stops verifying signatures at 5pm on 2-1-08 regardless of how many they have yet to verify.  If it does not get on November 2008 ballot, then it will be back in 2010 as signatures are good for 4 years.

alabayea,

I guess at this point, we'd call it a TKO (technical knockout). If HDA moves forward, then in 2010, at least two years worth of signatures will have expired. So sponsors would have to backtrack and gather signatures to replace those that they had collected in 2004-2005 and maybe some from 2006.

Yes?

Until the FL Div of Elections releases the official count there is no technical knockout or facts, only assumptions, as to whether HTD gets on the ballot in 2008 or not.  Professionals experienced in dealing with facts know better than to release information until it is official.

Those signatures more than 4 years old would have to be replaced for a 2010 ballot. 

Link to a story but we must see who's declaring that it didn't make it and its not the Elections Office.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2008/01/28/daily30.html?surround=lfn

A couple of quotes from the Jacksonville Business Journal article ... 

"Their amendment was written by a handful of zealots without regard for what potential endorsers, volunteers and voters might think."

   - Floridians for Smarter Growth General Counsel Joe Sowinski

"We employed a straightforward and effective campaign to better educate voters about the amendment and the state's new signature retraction process."

   - Co-Chairman of Save Our Constitution John Thrasher 

Floridians for Smarter Growth thinks we're too stupid to understand what we sign and support.  Good thing Save Our Constitution was there to educate us with that infamously "straightforward" approach.

Michael S. Mann

For those of us in the home building business, or more appropriately, what USED to be the home building business, we fully expect the Hometown Democracy Amendment to be back, "ass-u-me-ing" it's really done for 2008.  Never underestimate anyone or anything - a fatal philosophy.

In my opinion, the HDA is an understandable reaction to a truly unbelievable jump in the growth rate of the State of Florida.  I don't have statistics at my finger tips this AM, they're not really needed, but Florida EXPLODED from 2000 to 2005.  The influx goes back to the mid-1800's, but reached critical mass in the last decade or so.  No one can credibly disagree the growth wasn't fueled by government policies that were way too permissive toward developers.  The governments and businesses were lapping up the tax proceeds and profits like starving dogs.

Now look at us.  We are in the midst of a growth party hangover.  And it's not going away any time soon.  It will be another 18-24 months before all the standing inventory is gone.  We just voted an insane property tax cut (aka government revenue cut) on ourselves, and we are using our resources so fast we are having to decide between drinking treated sewage water or draining rivers and lakes for drinking water. 

Does anyone really think people will continue to move to Florida in the droves they did over the last 15-20 years?  I don't.  But, that's a good thing.  Growth should be at a healthy rate.  Too much of a good thing is . . . too much.  There should be moderate, well planned & managed, growth.  Raping and pillaging the land to build another subdivision or mall is irresponsible.  But the good ol' "market" is going to help us with our problem.  Growth is moving to less crowded, less regulated places like Georgia, North Carolina, Montana, and other places.  According to one moving company (name?) they moved more people out of Florida than into Florida.  The tide has turned.  Our population will continue to increase, but not nearly at the rate it has in the past.  A good thing.

I still don't like the HDA, and will vote against it when it comes back in 2010.

Very well said, Bill. And all great points. I agree with you.

While pretty secluded out here in Keystone, we maintain an annual growth rate of about 2- to 3-percent per year. Yes, there are new faces in the grocery store I don't recognize but overall it is a manageable amount of people to integrate into our community each year. Here, the impact of growth is reflected in our schools. Keystone Elementary is grossly overcrowded for such an aging facility and I believe, there needs to be a middle school to break up the Junior and Senior high school. There are issues that could be better managed for middle-school aged students if they were grouped together. In the aftermath of a "growth party hangover" (love that, Bill), I too believe, that there will be a slower, steadier trend in growth.

I think the prevailing opposition I have with HDA is that it is a Constitutional Amendment. I think it goes too far in reigning in zoning changes. We must - as a community - put pressure on elected officials to balance the need for rooftops with a high quality of rural life.

If HDA comes around again, I still could not support it. At this point and under present conditions, I don't think it's needed.

/K

I want to know. What exactly about the HDA is so great? As I understand it, right now we have a process where a person, a builder or (gasp) a developer would come to the county, ask for a land use change or zoning change, after filing his or her application, the matter would go to the Planning Commission (CCPC), they would make their recommendation, the BCC would rule on it, it would then go to the Department of Community Affairs in Tallahassee, they would rule on finders of conflict or no conflict with the State Comp Plan and the County Comp Plan, transmit their findings back to the Planning department/BCC, the BCC would vote on allowing the proposed change and then the person who intitially submitted the request can go forth to build or whatever.

What I understand, and I haven't researched this extensively is: the only change would be, that after all this review, at some point in time the request would be put out for the voters to accept or deny on a referendum.

I know that I have probably missed some steps and oversimplified the process, but here is the problem I have with the HDA: First how many citizens are really going to research all the data, the hearings, the Topo maps, etc. to make an informed decision. I know I have looked at three DI's, each DRI is in two huge three ringer binders. Also are we going to have one huge referendum vote every year for the potentially hundreds of requests or will it be monthly, quarterly or what timeframe. Lastly, with all the financial problems we are acknowledging on these blogs, where will we get the money to pay for these "Special Elections".

I find it almost humerous that the people of florida believe that they can get a huge tax break on their personal property taxes and at the same time add millions of additional cost for multiple referendums for the HDA.

I give up, have I left the planet and I no longer need to make decisions based on longterm and sound logic?

Karen it doesn't surprise me in the least that you not only would jump the gun ahead of the Official word but actually quote opponents of HDA as your source. 

Even if it doesn't make the ballot this time I am already geared to continue getting petitions signed.  I got almost an entire subdivision in Palm Coast signed up in the last ten days who are in a battle with a developer. 

Baxley/Bill,  You appear to be such a reasonable man and I am SO GLAD you are here in the blogs. Other then the reality that we're on opposite sides of this issue your blog made a whole lot of sense and I agree with you to a point.  That 18-24 month inventory is for right now, next month that inventory could be even worse between what is being built and what is being lost due to ARMs that are resetting and people cannot refinance because values are falling, not everywhere but more often then not. With the passing of Amendment 1 it is less attractive for investors to come into the state to pick up some of the surplus.  In the meantime homes are still being built, new subdivisions are still going forward and the values of existing homes continues to drop.  My point is that I agree the boom is over, but I think the full extent of the damage is yet to be seen. 

CSD it doesn't seem to me with all their informed knowledge that our Goverment has done such a great job so I think it's a little insulting to the average citizen to say the things you have.  You don't need to look in 3 ring binders to see our roads are over burdened, commute times is causing an increase in road rage. Our schools are too small when we break ground for them yet we build them that same size anyway.  Teachers don't even have their own classrooms anymore, they wander from room to room like nomads.  I don't need to read a three ring binder to see in the news that something as basic as water is running out and now they want to screw with eco system in the river.

A group of citizens went before the BCC just recently and had to inform them that if they voted to break Covenants & Restrictions in a PUD that there were several legal precedents showing the Court will uphold those C&R's and then hold whoever broke them financially responsible for the loss they cause. We have paid Attorneys that work for the local Goverment, and they were clueless. 

I don't need to read three ring binders to know what I want around me and what I don't. 

If you find the people of Florida so humorous in voting themselves a tax cut because so many are struggling to keep ahold of their homes then you ought to be laughing your backside off at the Goverment and Governor of the State who started all this.  I by the way voted against it because in the LONG TERM this will not solve our problems. Personally, I find no humor it.

My guess is, if HDA were to pass there would be less far less requests but I say let the developer who will make the lions share of the money pay for the special elections.

Your entire blog on this thread makes you sound like one of those people in Tallahassee or wherever that tells us we're all too stupid to "get it".

Well, I get it, goverment and those that flock like vultures work in incriments, and so do I.  If HDA misses the mark and Ms Blackner has no legal moves to challenge how all this was handled then I will be working towards the 2010 election. 

This now isn't just about the growth, it's now about water too.  Since the powers that be over decades of time didn't know enough or do enough to keep us out of where we are now I have no faith in their "long term studies" and their 3 ring binders on the impact of draining that River to support further development. 

If HDA misses this time around I am not the least bit discouraged and as long as Ms Blackner is accepting petitions I will continue to get them signed. For those of you out there who support HDA there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions who have never heard of it. 

Keep spreading the word, we'll get there. 

Marsha,

Forgive me, I guess I wasn't clear about what I was asking. I was asking: given all the due diligence (I guess you don't believe that) that is presently in place and I understand would not go away with the HDA, and the fact that it can take a great deal of research on a personal level to understand the facts, how does the HDA makes sense. Again, please be gently with me, I am a pioneer on the search for truth, justice and the American way of life, no wait that was Superman; oh, well I hope you get my point, I can't understand how people can impede the flow of revenue that the government runs on and at the same time ask for it to spend more. That is like overeating (which I have pesonal knowledge of) to lose weight.

If I am to believe what I see written on here and you have inferred to in you blog, to operate on the assumption that the people who benefit from the changes would pay for the special elections, is folley, they don't pay, they reap.\

As for my not believing that people will research the information, I have a lot of evidence to support that contention. A very good example is outlawing the Farrowing crates for pigs. I grew up on a farm and worked on a pig farm, those farrowing crates saved thousands of little pigs lives, but the electorate did not take the time to research what they were or the purpose, and voted to outlaw something that saved lives. They didn't know that the only time the sow (momma pig) was in the farrowing crate was when she was nursing or sleeping. she had a lot of time out for exercise and would run right back in and lay down when it was time to go back to her babies in the crate. You see what I am talking about. Now let's look at who has been elected and re-elected in politics, George Bush (the clay county one) has been in elected office for over 20 years on the school board and the BCC; the one case where I believe in Term limits. Clinton was re-elected and George W. was re-elected. Is your confidence starting to waver?

I'm not sure how much a "special election" would cost local taxpayers, or even if they'd be needed on anything resembling a regular basis.  But I'm willing to bet you could hold several elections for the cost of one elementary school that must be built because of more ill-timed or ill-planned growth.

As Bax said, "No one can credibly disagree the growth wasn't fueled by government policies that were way too permissive toward developers."  To argue or pretend otherwise, especially with Clay County's history, is disengenuous.  The Hometown Democracy Amendment is an attempt to change that abundant permissiveness, by vesting final authority for requested land use changes in the hands of voters - instead of officials whose election campaigns were most likely (at least in Clay County) financed by the growth industry.

Three-ring binders can contain worlds of information, but that volume of detail isn't always necessary to make an informed decision.  Skip to the part in the binder that says, for example, a new plan's 2,000 new homes are going to add 1,000  new students to the school district and 3,000 vehicles to an already-overburdened transportation system.  Isn't that enough information on which to base a decision?

The housing market may help provide local government with some of the time it needs to overcome its past permissiveness, but to depend on a cyclical market instead of solid, common sense government policies and actions is like ignoring the disease because a symptom is no longer visible.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

CSD the points you wanted to make are just different then the points I picked up on.  Sometimes it's not just about what you say that sends the message.  Its the way you say it and what you don't say.  You absorb things your way and I absorb them my way.

There is a growing movement of people who want more control, plain and simple. We're paying the taxes, we're both benefiting to a degree but more importantly suffering the consequences and it's is just that brilliantly simple and I refuse to consider it any other way, and that is the beautiful thing about freedom of choice.

Speaking of brilliant, Mikes point that we cannot all now swallow the distracting notion that "it's all over now so don't worry about it".  It's not all over, the problems that exist from decisions that were made years ago are still here.  In order to solve the problem you must take steps to do both damage control and prevention, and that's just common sense. It doesn't do any good to bail water out of a sinking boat if you can't fix the leak. HDA is the hoist that gets the boat up out of the water.  

Again, you spoke for me and many others here in Clay County. 

I thank you, as you said it much better than I could.  I too shall continue to promote the HDA.  The politicians (Thrasher and cronies) are apparently afraid the people will have a true voice, so they had to pass yet another law that allows them to get petition signers to rescind their signatures by "educating them" on what's best for them..."Hello, I'm from the government and I'm here to help".  They apparently were so fearful, that they couldn't let the amendment get on the ballot because they know once all FL voters were aware of it that it would be approved with a resounding YES!! 

I also voted against the property reform, because it's just a very short term solution to a long term problem, but apparently 64% of the voters didn't agree with us.  So be it. 

Now I'll go to my gardens and get rid of the cynical and sarcastic thoughts that might otherwise appear here. 

HTD website is www.floridahomeowndemocracy.com.  Just click on various menu items and read.  It will answer most of your questions.

In a nutshell, if the developers plan for land use is in accordance with the local adopted comprehensive plan, there is no problem.  It's those plans that need a change to the comprehensive plans that would rquire the voters to approve/disapprove those changes.  It strips elected officials of that power and places it in the hands of the voters.

Voters won't need to do any research as it will already have been completed.  Residents of a neighborhood know what they can/cannot live with in their area.   

It's strictly land use changes and would not require any special elections, unless developer wanted it at their expense.

The EAR based amendments to the county comp plan are about to start, why not ensure that everyone gets a voice in these changes. Write or call your commissioner and anyone else who will listen and make sure that there are public hearings conducted around the county and advertised so that your voice is heard. If you truly don't want any growth, hold fast in your input into the process of the comp plan amendments. If you want a Longe Range Transporation Plan (LRTP) in the comp plan, make sure you push strongly for it.

This is the opportunity for  us "Citizens" to make sure we provide our input into the process. As I have said before, don't just shoot arrows, move the army.

Marsha,

I disagree that I jumped the gun. Angela adeptly linked a story from the Jax Biz Journal. The Division of Elections is posting updates. The information was already out there.

Yes, I cited SOC press release intentionally. Both PACs (SOC and HDA) have equal access to the legislative process. I see no difference in SOC's efforts or Leslie Blackner's efforts. Both PACs have raised a substantial amount of money in support of their individual efforts. Both sides want to influence voters.

I wonder how well HDA would have been received if it was John Thrasher driving HDA and not Leslie. Would HDA still be the cause you feel it is today? (This is meant to be a qualifying question to ascertain if HDA is something you truly believe in.)

Mike makes the point (I'm paraphrasing) that special elections would probably be less expensive than building schools for students through ill-planned growth. I think he's right. Growth concurrency will be in place in May and then the county and the School Board will have to play in the same sand box when they approve housing developments. I agree with many others that rather than burden local government with another law where you cannot estimate the unintended consequences (HDA), a building moratorium is in order.

I think the combination of School Concurrency and a building moratorium slows us down to a pace where everyone can breathe normally and decide the next best step. It would be fiscally prudent. It could be well researched. It would be good public policy.

/K 

Ok, let's all push for a moratorium, that seems to be something everyone on here agrees with. What a strange concept: agreement.

Now take it a step further, put your requirements in the comp plan through the EAR based amendments.

I think most of the people here have either not read of forgot a little tidbit I put out there a few days ago, there is over 200% of the required, residential opportunities, currently available in clay county. That means, rooftops and undeveloped land that has been plotted or has a zoning classification that will allow houses to be built, that includes 1 house for 20 acres in the agricultural zoning.

Well now,

here is the information we needed a month or so ago when we were talking about how many times the Comprehensive Plan might have been amended over the years.   It seems that these are only the numbers that made it to the Department of Community Affairs.  I signed the petition and did not have it revoked, as I understand was my right.

http://www.takebackmysignature.com/countydetail.asp?county=Clay

How many of those  comprehensive plan changes would have occurred if the 'powers that be' didn't have all of the authority to just approve those changes without taking them to the voters?  Chances are, some of the changes would never have been proposed at all.  If that process (HDA) had been in place (or if we had some politicians who had common sense and vision without self-interest), we might not be in this situation.  But we are, so let's learn from our past and look ahead to what we can do to make things better.  

We have an opportunity coming up to start this change with the Board of County Commissioners. Let's do our research and our homework and decide who is the best person to serve with intelligence, common sense and foresight, and not necessarily the one with the most money, no matter which district they live in. It is my belief that as a body, they represent all of the citizens of Clay County and not just the voters in their individual districts.  We also have the same opportunity with other county offices, so let the learning begin!

I think many suggestions from bloggers are well thought out and I for one, am grateful that we have so many resourceful and intelligent people who are expressing their ideas and opinions, point/countpoints.  I have learned, and continue to learn much more about where we live than would have been possible if not for the MCS blog and its participants. 

Thanks to all.

See folks this is our golden opportunity to seize a moment. I was glad to see that scrub dweller picked up on my idea as requested in his blog "Discussion on Blog Dynamics". I quote,

"I think our Evaluation and Appraisal Report (EAR) report identified some areas of concern. Our EAR report is a document released every 7 years. It is probably one of the most important documents that gauge our growth issues. How well we have done or not done. Wonder if we could get the Commissioners to do a workshop on just the EAR's report what was in it, and what changes they are making. Tell the citizens about their report card."

Now taxpayers, amendments to our Comp Plan or just Ordinances voted on by the Commissioners. We need to research some counties that have implimented some strict ordinances concerning their growth managment. I think Leslie Blackner would be a great source and could offer some counties that have recently amended their Comp Plans and some ideal ordinances that would restrict growth and help with the transportation issues.

I think Seminole County recently amended their comp plan due to their EAR's report. I think it was called Vision 2020. I will need to do some research but I think we should request they do workshops on our Comp Plan, tell us areas of concerns with our plan, and let the citizens decide what they want to have in that plan.

I think recently they were making some amendments to our Comp Plan to go with the EAR's report. These Commissioners need to allow the citizens the right to be involved with the Comp Plan amendment process. Amendments that are in favor of the citizens and not the developers and landowners. Who have seemed to have free reign in the county.

However, this will not slow growth by itself, because they will just apply for a Comp Plan amendment the same as they do now. So HTD's amendment will still be an important part of the plan. Regardless of our current Comp Plan they have amended it as Read 44 linked.

I like the link because I've seen it before. What caught my attention was they used the years 1998- 2003. Well guess what this is 2008. Why didn't they post 2003-2007 the most current years? All of the comp plan amendments have to be filed and it could have been easily accessed. We had one (1) Comp plan amendment in 2003. Wonder who that was for in the County? I think the best numbers would have come from the 2003-2007 to give the citizens a more accurate total. We I guess they were going for the largest number and not the smallest. It would have lost some of it's effectiveness and less likely to fool the voters.

What should be another important step in the plan would be to get the 2 additional Commissioner off the Charter. With the amendment that just passed for the reduction in taxes collected we need money to help with transportation problems. So we need to organize an effort to give the county as much money to put toward transportation as possible. Removing those 2 positons would be a great start. I've always found it funny that Clay County a predominately Rep County would vote for more government. We need more effective government. Not more governement.

I think those would be some great solutions. I disagree that our Commissioners will not listen if enough people get involved in the beginning then we can make an impact. I suggest we all contact our Commissioners and request some workshops on the Comp Plan for OUR vision of Clay County.

I think helping people that you want to represent you on the Board regardless of the district is a great idea. If you don't have money to donate, then use your time. Door to Door in a district gets their name out there. Check the PAC's and the amount of monies they have raised. The biggest bank don't always win the prize. Just look how effective CTLAC has been on minimum funds.

If HTD amendment doesn't make it this time we will just work harder to get it on the ballot in 2010. The most important thing is we are asking question and voting in the county.

Angela,

I am glad you are willing to get involved in the EAR based amendments to the comp plan. No conspiracy, no evil, just good, positive, citizen involvment. Taking it to the level of Visioning was beyond my wildest expectations, you totally surprised me; ThankYou!!!!!!

There was a group in Clay County a couple of years ago called Clay Vision 2020, they had a very good effort started, but were shut down by the commission and I believe some citizens were pretty vocal (in a negative way) about the effort also. I am surprised you weren't aware of or involved in that effort.

The difference is that with a comprehensive Visioning effort, if it is rolled into the comp plan, there can be teeth put into the plan that will constrain growth or at the very least attach mitigation and/or concurrency requirements with comp plan amendments. For instance; if a developer wanted a DRI in the Clay Hill area, he would need to donate a portion of land equal in size to the DRI elsewhere in the county, just like wetlands mitigation.

You see, a real solution, you have lit a candle and maybe started moving the army.

I am not a big fan of the county's vison plan rolled into a comp plan, but a comp plan vision of citizens made up of amendments or ordinances that restrict growth. Some counties have adopted Charter amendments that restrict growth and that would be a great avenue to investigate too.

I am not a big fan of wetlands mitigation either and will reseach my Florida Trend article and post it, if you're not familiar with it. I think it addresses my concerns real well with that issue.

I am not a big fan of the Chamber at the present time and/or makeup of the Chamber. That would be a blog within itself. I am glad the Commissioners shut that down.

I would support the moratorium. We have building slated in the pipelines until almost 2020. I think the Highlands DRI that is working it's way through the system goes pretty far out there too.

I was not impressed with the Chamber's representation at the meeting where they discussed the Highland's DRI.

Out of respect to those who like official numbers, here they are from the Division of Elections website:

Hometown Democracy had 564,558 verified signatures. Of those, 18,731 (or 3.31%) of those signatures were revoked for a total of 545,827 signatures. The amendment fell short of the required 611,009 signatures by 65,182.

I suspect by 2010, half of the verified signatures will have expired so if HDA is to survive another election cycle, they will probably have to solicit 300,000 more signatures.

Here's the web site to back this information: http://election.dos.state.fl.us/initiatives/initdetail.asp?account=37681&seqnum=2

/K

Just so everybody is informed, HTD submitted more than enough petitions to qualify for a 2008 ballot position.  There was sufficient quantity to offet the revocations submitted by SOC - they just did not get processe by the Div of Elections before the deadline 2-1-08.  Don't have an exact number but know it was more than 800,000. 

Just so everybody is informed, HTD submitted more than enough petitions to qualify for a 2008 ballot position.  There was sufficient quantity to offet the revocations submitted by SOC - they just did not get processe by the Div of Elections before the deadline 2-1-08.  Don't have an exact number but know it was more than 800,000. 

needed in Mandarin?

http://www.news4jax.com/video/15216865/index.html?treets=jax&tid=2657462269813&tml=jax_12pm&tmi=jax_12pm_1_11450402052008&ts=H

Only if it required a change to their local Comprehensive Plan.

This same thing happened to the folks that live off College Drive. They have been to the BCC meetings and complained. How would you like to have those building behind your house. One man complained that his daughters were being looked at while swimming in their back yard. Nice mix in a neighborhood.