103rd Street Shooting, Comments

I can remember 'back in the day' the chanting "Westside is the Bestside".  My uncle had a garage on 103rd in the 50's and they lived close by.  That was then, when people were more humble - this is now and very frightening.  I agree, hopefully we won't see that here.

MeMaw

Wow! The story about the road rage shootings was bad enough. The comments are the real scary part.

I must be getting way too old. Comments like some of these would never have been acceptable. Where do we breed these people? I guess anonymity makes it easier to act like idiots and racists. I'm sure that some are just trying to put on a show about how they can play the hoodlum in front of an audience, but still.

You are correct about the level of animosity in these comments. Our poor little blog wars can't hold a candle to this bunch.

Mike Heemer

The scariest comment is Bax's last paragraph.

Up here in the northeast corner of the county, our proximity to Jacksonville's Westside makes it easier to imagine experiencing that kind of crime.  So much of Jacksonville has crossed the county line, in fact, that it's almost impossible to not imagine that kind of violence coming our way, too.

Michael S. Mann

With the Brannan Field road that leads right to 103rd St it is but a hop, skip, and jump away defined by an obscure county line with two lanes versus four lanes. Oakleaf Plantation has high property crimes and has increased out there rapidly in the last couple of years. I know a person on the email tree of the Sheriff's Office it seems alot of crime in our county comes from that area. Just wait with the Outer Beltway proposed it will more than likely continue to escalate. High crime is generally associated with major roads and interchanges (Orange Park Mall area) and they have approx 13 interchanges planned for the Outer Beltway. It seems criminals like an easy in and out of the area like the rest of us. You think they will be paying any tolls?

It already is here.  Have you been to the OP Mall after dark?  Ask the businesses along Wells Road.  It's here and coming to a subdivision near you......a real weak attempt at humor.  Magnum do you agree?

Those comments worry me as well.

It saddens me alot. I have the belief that we as a nation have come a long way regarding, racial, religous, and gender bias, but sometimes it appears as though there is a trend moving in the opposite direction.

 I am all for freedom of speech and expression, but their must be adults around to help explain to the youth the difference. When I was raising my childeren for example, and I allowed them to watch a movie with contraversial issues, I watched it with them and a dialog was opened afterward to keep them straight so they would not vere in the wrong dirrection.

Today the music the kids listen to (gangster rap) glorifies shooting cops, taking and selling drugs, woman are nothing more then a sex object and status symbol, and bust a cap at anyone that gets in their way. I would ask where are the parents monitoring and explaining these topics to them.

When you raise childeren without common sense guidance from parents that monitor and explain life, love, and tollerance, you get the 103rd St. incident. When you plant beans you get beans.

We are seeing it more and more every day across the nation, be scared, be very scared, they are growing in numbers, and we are all getting older. What will it look like long after we are gone, are we going backwards to a mentality of us and them. There is still alot of hatred out there.

TRUTHHURTS

I haven't been to Orange Park Mall in at least 7 years. They were stealing cars from the parking lot, robbing people in the parking lot then. I think now they have started car jacking. The last time I went there I parked my car and the person next to me was putting packages in the trunk. A guy came running by grabbed her stuff and ran to the Home Depot parking lot turned around a started laughing. I got back in my car and gave my parking spot to whomever was willing to brave the criminals. I see it hasn't gotten any better from the news.

Ms. Angela

Thats why I love our 2nd Amendment rights so much

TRUTHHURTS

Angela, you shouldn't have any problem with safety in the mall parking lot.  If someone gets too close for your comfort, just whip out a few of the various names and personalities you've been called here in the blogs.  You'll have the bad guy overwhelmingly outnumbered.

Michael S. Mann

Baxley,

Those types of comments in blog form are the reason I was so thrilled when MCS.com came about.  The filth isn't worth reading much less responding to and in no way should be used as a measuring stick so we can sink a little lower.  The mindset that "we're not as bad as that" will surely send us down to that level if we're not careful. 

I still say the surge in crime is from the hundreds of thousands that were displaced by Katrina.  But regardless of where it comes from in it' s conception its all the same. Standards for behavior are slowly chipped away at, slowly given less importance and slowly any sense of right and wrong goes with it.

At birth a child needs to be taught no evil, it's already there.  Lock a baby in a room and do nothing but provide for physcial needs and you will see a human that grows into something little more then an animal.  What's good and right has to be learned, it has to be taught and it has to be practiced.  I've always thought I was born long after my time because to me, grace and gentility in life is worth pursuing and maintaining on a basic level. 

Couldn't agree more, Marsh.  Instead of congraluting ourselves for being "better than," we should still - and always - be looking for ways to raise own bar.

Katrina?  I've got a theory that blames crime on President Eisenhower.  Can't wait for your blogger party!

Michael S. Mann

I agree Mike. However, I now have something else I carry to whip out on them. Nonetheless when that day comes I'll either have some public records to display or news reports for validation. They can google those for review.

Since the 1980’s this area has always had its share of crime. However, some of you may have been around in 1976 or 1977 when Juanita Estes an OPHS cheerleader was kidnapped from the mall by an escapee from out west. This case is the only one I recall that originated at the mall and resulted in a murder. About a week later her body was found in a wooded area in Fruit Cove. The different types of crime have increased over the years. In the 1980’s you could bet money on a couple of shoplifting or forgery arrest at the mall each week, and a couple of car burglaries in the apartment complexes on Well’s Rd. I have made several arrests while working this area over the years and yes a majority is Jacksonville residents. The world has changed since those times and the 1990’s and 2000’s have brought us new drugs, Ecstasy, Methamphetamine, and MTV portraying its cool to be a thug and walk around with your pants hanging off your butt. The west coast east coast rap music has also played a part in this mentality of drugs, killing and raping women. I have to include one more key part, poor parenting or no parenting. The juvenile justice system is broke and judges hands are tied by statute as to what they can do with juveniles.

Now to the O.P Mall, for many years Simon property has taken a liberal stance on curtailing the shenanigans such as loitering and cruising the parking lot. The parking lot cruising is no more than thugs sizing up potential victims. Past management was worried that the company would be sued for discrimination by banning these kids and young adults from the mall. That attitude and approach created some of the mess you see today. The current manager is in tune with what has to be done and supports law enforcements efforts. The problem is allocating law enforcement resources 3-4 days and nights a week to maintain order. On the weekends the mall hires three deputies in the evening until 1:00 a.m. There are times when deputies working patrol beats have to come back up these deputies due to fights that have 15-20 people involved and 500-1000 spectators if in the theater area. Some parents use the mall as a baby sitter and that adds to the problems. The mall has a rule that no minor is to be on the property after 10 p.m. The enforcement of the rule is difficult due to the number of violators and locating parents to come get their children that have been dumped. You can’t tell a 13 or 14 year old girl to leave the property and stand on the street corner and wait for your parent to come. You could but when she is abducted and raped or murdered law enforcement would have a lot of explaining to do.

The whole movie theatre thing bugs me. Sometimes we go as a family but the girls will want to see a different movie then we do.  At 16 & 18 I think that's ok.  The problem comes if their movie gets out a few minutes earlier then ours the girls have been forced out of the Theatre and onto the street by CCSO.  They tell them they're with their Mother who is in another theatre and it doesn't matter they kick them out anyway.

There are all these games inside the theatre for people to play, my girls don't look like thugs and they don't act like thugs yet they get kicked out of the theatre rather then being allowed to remain inside for the 10-30 minutes that they're waiting for me.  I tried asking an Officer, one says ok and then another says "I don't care" and kicks them out anyway. 

Marsha,

I know the deputies working off duty at the theater were making kids wait in a certain area of the patio if they were waiting on a ride or their parent. You would be amazed at how many kids say they are waiting on their parent that is in another movie and what they are waiting for is a chance to slip into another movie free when the deputy turns his back or they go down to the the exit doors on this side of the building and let their friends in to avoid paying admission. These doors can not be locked because it is a fire escape. I do not know your kids and they are probably great kids but you just dont know who to trust. 

I can only imagine what Law Enforcement deals with,it's difficult to believe anyone I would imagine. But the first time it happened it made me angry on a cold dark night when the mall was shut down. I learned and adapted. We basically stick to the afternoon movies now if they're going into another theatre.  That way they can go into the mall and aren't just standing outside.  I'll be glad when the Theatre down in FI gets built and we'll avoid the mall altogether for movies. 

What is hard to believe is that there are no parents who even pretend to supervise their children.  Frankly, if the mall had a large room, and made everyone go into is while waiting for their ride, it would suit me fine.  They made the mess it is by not allowing it to get this way.  Once you lose control of something this size, it is extremely difficult to get it under control.

I agree with Marsha, once another theater comes to Clay county, I will never go there again, even in the afternoon.  We gave up evening showings years ago.  I do not want to get involved in the pit that OP Mall has become after dark. 

Fleming Island will need  stay on top of their new theater.  I heard a Mother of teenagers say that they won't have trouble like the OP Mall because they don't have "kids like that" on "the island"  I almost laughed out loud.  They will have the same trouble that is at OP, maybe more because the kids will want to hang out at a new place. 

 Its the same old thing we were at that age we want to hang out with our friends, but where do you go....and till this day that is a problem

Want confirmation that the drop in Duval crime has had an impact on Clay crime? Read the article in today's TU.

Clayvoter;

I'm with you. Where does she think the kids at OP Mall are coming from, Mars? A large percentage come from 'The Island'. We don't have kids like that here? Where has she been? All she has to do is read the stories coming out of FIHS and she'll see that we have plenty of kids 'like that'.

Mike Heemer

I don't believe it's an issue of no where to go as much as it may be too much time on their hands and the mindset they ought to be entertained 24/7.  If my kids don't have some sort of a specific plan their time to just go "hang out" is very limited and they've never been allowed to just "hang out" at the mall.  I am very blessed that my girls are not constantly looking for "somewhere to go", they like the security of home.  It takes alot of time and effort to stay on top of who they're with and what they're doing when they're not with me. 

Boredom in one or two teenagers is typical. In a group of teenagers who also have too much time on their hands it's a catalyst for trouble. 

I grew up in the rural midwest, now that's a place where there is no where to go and nothing to do but we'll still managed to entertain ourselves because we didn't have an over abundance of time for such things.  Taking my kids back to where I grew up really gives them an accurate picture of what truly having no where to go and nothing to do is all about.

Marsha,

You are spot on.  If you add money to the boredom, it is a recipe for disaster.  I hope Fleming Island is proactive with the theater, they sure have not been with FIHS.

Magnum;

I always get a little sideways when I hear about officers working off duty for someone. I know they can use the money but it seems to me that what happens is that CCSO looks at this as if they were filling actual CCSO patrols.

My feeling is that these officers are off duty and should not be considered as if they were on duty. There has to be a change in the thought process for these officers.

They are not being paid by CCSO during those hours so they have to switch loyalties to the one signing their paycheck. I'm not implying that they are less vigilant but that even though they would like to see it otherwise they will go with the wishes of the employer.

The mall has a rule that no minor is to be on the property after 10 p.m. The enforcement of the rule is difficult due to the number of violators and locating parents to come get their children that have been dumped. You can’t tell a 13 or 14 year old girl to leave the property and stand on the street corner and wait for your parent to come. You could but when she is abducted and raped or murdered law enforcement would have a lot of explaining to do.

Why would law enforcement have any explaining to do? These officers are NOT being paid by CCSO during those hours and despite all the rhetoric about never being off duty, they are drawing a paycheck from someone else during those times and are doing what their employer (the mall) hired them to do. 

If the mall really wants off duty officers with the force of law behind them, then they should not have the option of dictating anything. Either they are CCSO and they run it as it should be run to provide maximum safety, common sense and law enforcement. Yes the mall is signing the paycheck, but if they want to dictate, then they should hire rent-a-cops.

Why does the mall need a CCSO officer to worry about kids sneaking into another theater for free? Don't they have real employees to handle things like that? Those fire doors that can't be locked could sure as heck be wired so that if they are opened an alarm goes off.

Mike Heemer

“I always get a little sideways when I hear about officers working off duty for someone.” Finder 

Finder,

Don’t get sideways come get in my passenger seat of my patrol car this summer. I am inviting you to accompany me on patrol at the mall. From reading your blogs you seem to be a very smart man. Come ride with me and I am going to familiarize you in a few things in the police world as it relates to the mall. It’s not as easy as you think.

 “Why would law enforcement have any explaining to do? These officers are NOT being paid by CCSO during those hours and despite all the rhetoric about never being off duty, they are drawing a paycheck from someone else during those times and are doing what their employer (the mall) hired them to do.” Finder 

You can thank the media and lawyers. The media will put a mom on the evening news and say that we should have taken better care of her daughter and called her to be picked up. She will leave the part out that she could not be located and would not answer her phone to come pick up her daughter. As for explaining our position, as long as you are wearing that uniform you will have to be accountable for your actions to the Sheriff’s Office. Some lawyer will be licking his chops waiting to file civil action against CCSO for failing to protect. It’s called the deep pocket theory. The Jessica Lunsford case in an example, her dad is now suing the Citrus County Sheriff’s Office.

“If the mall really wants off duty officers with the force of law behind them, then they should not have the option of dictating anything. Either they are CCSO and they run it as it should be run to provide maximum safety, common sense and law enforcement. Yes the mall is signing the paycheck, but if they want to dictate, then they should hire rent-a-cops.” Finder

The current manager is in tune with what has to be done and supports law enforcements efforts.

“I know they can use the money but it seems to me that what happens is that CCSO looks at this as if they were filling actual CCSO patrols.” Finder

Deputies working secondary employment do cut down on calls for service to certain locations they are staffing. If they are needed to assist on an emergency call close by they will break off from the secondary employment and back up patrol deputies. If the mall didn’t hire those deputies where would the police response come from? The deputies assign to beats in the Orange Park area. Then if a resident needs a deputy he is tied up at the mall. So in theory it is better for the mall to hire these deputies.

“My feeling is that these officers are off duty and should not be considered as if they were on duty. There has to be a change in the thought process for these officers.” Finder

They are off duty exercising full police authority when needed. We are never officially off duty.

“Why does the mall need a CCSO officer to worry about kids sneaking into another theater for free? Don't they have real employees to handle things like that? Those fire doors that can't be locked could sure as heck be wired so that if they are opened an alarm goes off.” Finder 

The deputies working the theater are hired by AMC theaters. The theater staff tried to handle the problem and was not successful due to patrons ignoring them or threatening them. Juveniles today have no problem challenging authority even a uniform deputy Maybe I need to make it clear about the location of the door I referenced. It is located in the west end of the theaters by the snack bar. It opens to the side walk next to the drive. As people exit this door after the movie some try to sneak in or their friend will go buy a ticket and come to the door and let them in.