The draft

Having two teenage girls at home the notion of them opening the Draft is scary even having served myself.  I didn't serve during a war.  As much as it scares me and I would dread it I don't disagree. 

But in my opinion the first ones that should go would be a significant portion of the jail population.  It would relieve a burden on the taxpayer and perhaps straighten a few of them out.  The next section of society that should serve is the people living off the welfare system that are of course able bodied and not single parents.  Then we could go after the illegals, let them earn their citizenship by serving the country they want to live and work in.  Take all those people and then I would be more willing for our Country to call my daughters. 

I won't go into what I think about people who run for high positions in Goverment who have not served their country in uniform, it will take the blog in a different direction.

I think the Draft opening up is only a matter of time.  We're involved in too much conflict and/or peace keeping throughout the world and our forces are stretched to the max. 

WW,

Before instituting a draft, especially a 2 year draft, some things should be considered.  I spent 4 years in the Navy, '68 to '72, so I also have some first hand knowlege.  But consider this:

Is two years enough for training & experience before a person actually starts being effective on the job & begins to show value to the service?

With a 2 year draft, it is not unreasonable to expect a high turnover rate.  We would have to access the retention rates when the draft was in effect to support this.

Historically, when a draft is in effect, the educational standards of people entering the military was lower than when it is all volunteer.

In the past few years, numerous reports have come into public view, via military statistics, that standards have been lowered to meet the quotas to the point where the military did not require a high school diploma & even accepted people with criminal records which included drug use.

With a 2 year draft, assuming a low retention rate, we would have to take into account that those who only serve 2 years would also be elligible for benefits.  What would that do to the budget?

With a draft, regardless of the time requirement, historically, it has made it easier for a president to wage a war or war like campaigns.

In all probablility, you would also have the same conditions as, say during the Viet Nam era, where certain segments of society could escape the draft, ie., deferments, family pulling strings & the like.

Add to this that one doesn't necessarily need military service to have character, respect for authority or have good physical health.

I don't know when you were in, but during the 60's & part of the 70's these conditions were found to exist, were documented & studied & were found to be generally true, especially after an all volunteer force was initiated.  Exceptions to the rule?  Of course.  There always is.  But once again, general assumptions can be made when one has a rather extensive base of facts to go on.  Just a little food for thought.  JATFUR.

RichK

That's the beauty of the thing though, there isn't a draft and citizens are free to make the choice of serving or not serving. It wouldn't be fair to automatically force high school graduates into service for two years. A good portion of those kids aren't going to want to go and will be miserable. Not to mention, these kids just got out of school, that's a time to take a little breather over the summer and then go to college in the Fall. They aren't going to want to graduate and then oh, sorry, no fun for you because you're being forced off to the military for two years. Choosing to serve is a big decision and one you have to mentally prepare for. Not giving these kids a choice would be a mistake in the long run of things. 

I know that when I graduated back in 2003, the last thing I wanted to do was join the military. If I had been forced into it, then I would've done my darndest to get out of it because I know that I would be miserable in the military and I have no desire to ever serve in it. 

As ever, the draft is a two edged sword. There are a lot of considerations to look at before we could start one again. These are my opinions only. I speak only for myself and not the military.

On the plus side I think it would help to establish more respect for what it takes to have a free country. I feel part of our problems started when we did away with the draft.

It was a known fact in the early 80s that we would not be able to recruit enough males to fill all the billets. Thus the change in the % of females recruited and their being assigned to 'combat' positions.

A two year draft is not really cost effective. The training that is required needs to have a 3/4 year timeframe. Our military budget can't sustain the after service benefits of a two year system.

What about the females? Do we draft them the same as the males? Would it be fair not to? What do we do with them if we can't put them in true combat positions like we do the males?

Taking the criminals in my opinion would be counterproductive. We kind of tried that back in the 70s with McNamara's 100K. It didn't work then and it wouldn't work now.

The welfare group might be an option. The illegals I'd have to give more thought to. Maybe a 6 year commitment?

The highly educated AVF is a good thing in theory but you can see by the reports of tour lengths, number of tours and the number of guard/reserves being called up that we just don't have the end strength to continue the way we are going.

People that are supposed to be a lot smarter than me keep saying we don't need a draft. My fear is that they are trying to protect their own careers because it is political suicide to say otherwise.

'The truth shall set you free' has a whole different meaning when you are trying to advance up the career ladder.

Mike Heemer

Couple of three points.

1.  Nobody has mentioned the ecomony and the relation to military recruiting.  A strong economy (like we have had for years much to the dismay of the left - sorry just had to throw that in) usually means tougher recruiting for the military.  When the economy goes south, military recruiting is easier.  I spent 20 years in and in fact I joined up due to a job situation in my 20s.  Now, mix in 9/11, Iraq, and Afghanistan and it throws everything off balance in regards to the economy.  Some kids are joining TO GO TO IRAQ but you usually don't hear that in the press.  But, if the economy continues to stagnate - military recruiting will get better, no matter whether we are in Iraq or Tasmania - and

2.  Waivers of criminal activity.  This, like other topics, leaves alot to interpretation.  Here is an interesting link on recent stats - but again, be careful - of note is the Marine Corps' "high" drug waivers (no pun intended).  They are the only service that requires a waiver for one-time marijuana use.  Heck, a high proportion of our elected officials would need this waiver.  http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/waiverdetails.htm

2.  High School Diploma.  Recent (Oct 11, 2007) reports showed the Army was the only service to not reach 90% high school diploma for their recruits.  Theirs was 79%.  But this is actually very close to the U.S. Average, which depending on where you look it up is reported to be anywhere from 75-85%.  The recruits are a cross section of society, as they should be. 

The military, just like any other organization, is adapting (or improvising, adapting, and overcoming).  Recruiting is no different - is it a show stopper to accept less high school grads, probably not.  I haven't seen the stats, but I would bet that those that come into the military without a HS diploma have a much higher rate of obtaining their GED than those in the civilian population.  Just my theory.

BW;

Please don't get too offended about my response. I am not and do not condemn you for your feelings about the military. It certainly is not a career path for everyone.

I would however like you to give some thought to your sentiments concerning service in the military.

Each individual citizen of this country drinks at the well of freedom. When that well begins to run dry or is threatened with destruction it must be protected at all costs. You can sit back and drink the cool waters of someone else's labors and hope that their efforts will be enough to sustain that well, or you can join in that effort to ensure it remains viable not only for you and your generation but the one that follows and the one after that and the one .....

To me this is the ultimate in the thought of 'pay it forward'. You can say I took of the well and it was less full when I was finished or you can put forth the effort to say that it was at least as full when I finished as when I started.

And a very few can say that through their efforts it was more full when they finished than when they started. Perhaps your Grandfather was one of those that paid it forward in WWII?

To paraphrase Solo, something to chew on for a midnight snack of introspection.

Mike Heemer

CCC;

I spent 42 months as a Navy Recruiter from 78-82. I can add some weight to your points from that perspective.

1. You are dead on. The effort required to recruit people is inversely proportional to the state of the economy.

2. You are dead on again. It depends on the offense and where you are. During my time as a recruiter, a DUI in NY was a low grade felony and required a waiver from the Admiral. In NJ it was a misdemeanor and required a waiver from the Commanding Officer. In some other states it was nothing more than a moving violation and required no waiver at all.

3. You are batting a thousand. Darn you're good! 

Mike Heemer

CCC,

Thanks for the insight, facts & site.  I would disagree that we don't hear @ the kids joining to go to Iraq.  I've seen it on the news, local & national (yes, even on CNN) & a # of stories in the TU.  Clean those glasses big guy.  On the other hand, I've also read or seen the stories @ those leaving the military, especially low to mid ranking officers & enlisted.  Most gave pretty much the same reasons.

Totally agree with 1.

Criminal waivers.  You're right, there seems to be inconsistencies.  I would think there would be one standard for entering military service.  Personally, I think it would do a world of good to have an elected official take a toke, maybe once a week or so.  Face the facts.  It couldn't hurt much more than what they have been doing.

I am a bit surprised @ the high school diplomas.  Once again, I would think the standards would be the same for all sevices.  The one thing I remember reading, & this was quite a while ago, was that since the start of an AVM, the educational level of those coming in was, on average, higher than during times of the draft.

Love your Gunny Highway philosophy.  JATFUR.

RichK

Kind of realized in my entry above, I missed the whole point of the original blog - the Draft.

I don't necessarily believe in the draft, but some form of mandatory public service might not be a bad idea.  Yes, Solo, that is me saying that - a tried and true conservative saying mandatory public service is a good idea.  I don't think the draft is a good idea because frankly, there are some people I would not trust with a loaded weapon - very basic reason.

And in my time I certainly was not Gunny Highway, more like Private Will Stockdale. (No Time for Sergeants - 1958)

CCC,

See, I told ya so.  Even a "tried & tue conservative" can have the public good in mind. We're going to have to move you a notch or two towards the middle.  Not to worry.  We won't move you too far.  Bravo for you.

I do agree with the public service idea, though.  Something like the Peace Corps or maybe something local like community service.

I have to disagree with Marsha though.  I would not want criminals or illegals in the military.  They have already proven that they have no respect for the law or this country or can be trusted with weapons.  Beyond that, I agree that there are others I wouldn't trust with a loaded weapon. (DICK Cheney comes to mind.  Darn!  Where's my head?  He's the one with five deferments, isn't he?  Well, I guess we won't have to worry @ him.  Sorry.  I just had to get THAT one in.)

As for women.  As I've been taking about equal justice under law in the blog @ the marriage amendment, it should apply equally.  It works in Israel, for one example. 

Now, if you don't mind, I'll end this comment because I might have to take cover for that last statement.  JATFUR.

RichK

Not so sure that agree with a draft being instituted unless there is a major large scale conflict and we can't find soldiers, if we actually needed soldiers to win any war, then i would join or be willingly drafted.  i don't however, agree that we need to go germany style and choose hs graduates jobs that could turn into a career before they are given a choice. 

Bohemian,

I hope you won't be offended by my remarks.  You have the enthusiam and idealism of youth.  I appreciate both.  Perhaps with age and life experiences your views may change, mine did.  I have listened to  elderly WWII vets talk about liberating concentration camps, Viet Nam POW's talk about how they value their freedom that they used to take for granted, and both men and women back from Iraq talking about restoring water, electric and building schools. 

In our family we have served in WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam.  Two wars had volunteers, two were drafted.  Presently, we have a relative at a service academy and one USN retired.  We ARE a military family but it isn't for everyone.  However, every member of our family that has served felt that they became a better person because of their military service.

I would support a mandatory draft, without so many loopholes. I would also like the addition of a provision of serving in another capacity--peace corps, americorps (sp?) I would also support a waiver for full time college students.  They could serve their two after their college is finished. 

I just woudln't want the government telling me i had to do something else thats not already on the list.  I too have a military family, but it's not my calling especially when over a million have already volunteered but as i said before if absolutely needed i would serve. 

Foxx;

Care to elaborate on when you would consider yourself absolutely needed? 

Mike Heemer

When not enough people are willing to volunteer or when the chairman of the joint chiefs says the conflict will be lost without more personel, put it this way, i would serve if called upon, not a recruiter calling my home, but with a draft which i don't want in the first place, i would serve to the best of my ability if my name was or number was chosen on the lottery, if they even use those anymore.

Fair enough. No telling what they would use for a modern day draft. 

Mike Heemer

Thank you for all your insiteful inputs on this subject. A lot of interesting dialog to ponder. I was wondering what people thought about the draft.

Thank you all who served with me to protect the well.

Those who give up freedom for security have neither. 

Whitewolf, I agree with your theory of everyone spending 2 years in the military. It would teach the youth of today some morals that are much needed in society today. However, I don't think it should be mandatory that seems a little communist to me. Don't get me wrong I'm in no way implying that you are communist! I just think that the service in the military should be a voluntary endeavor. I myself am in the process of becoming a soldier in the U.S. Army because I believe that i need those moral values they will provide and I think that anyone with the desire to defend... should do so with all their heart. But when you force people to do things they don't want to do, they only do what they have to in order to get by. I don't know about you but i personally wouldn't give someone a gun and say you are my body guard and there is nothing you can do about it! I don't believe that person would do his job to his potential. I don't know what the answer is to the lack of moral character instilled in the young people of today, but I don't think forced service is the answer.