Political "kingdom of faith" - religous left or right?

I think the only reason it mattered concerning Romney and Huckabee is because they tried to make it matter.

I believe they thought that it was the winning trump card when it really wasn't. I think they scared the heck out of people with their too far right attitudes.

A lot of people tried to make religion a big deal with Kennedy too. But in the end it wasn't a big deal then either because he didn't let it be a big deal.

This may be a 'Christian' nation but most people don't like religious 'fanatics'. They are just too scary.

Mike Heemer

CCC,

I hope that you're not surprised.  Whether it's religion, labor issues, farm isuues, take your pick, have you known ANY politician, left or right, who hasn't played to the individual crowd?

One thing that bothered me a bit, though.  In at least the past year or so, Christian evangelicals, by & large, have withdrawn their automatic support of the conservative Republican cadidates.  They even went public to say that.  They finally figured out that they got the fuzzy end of the lollipop with Bush & said so.  Then they decided to be more discriminating on their chioce of whom they sould support in addition to shifiting their attention to more secular issues like the environment etc.  At least that's what I've read in the newsletters I get form the Associated Baptist Press newsletters I receive.

Then the primaries came & the Dems, apparently with very short memories, started to pander to them.  Why a candidates personal religious belief has become such a fabricated issue is still beyond understanding.  But so be it.  I have the feeling that if the Dems actually paid attention, they would see that the Christian right is not putting as much weight behind the religious overtones now as they did with the past two elections.  This may come back & bite the Dems on the tush & then they might see just how Gumpish they have been.  

For a week or so, Bill Donohue was nailing McCain to the wall, so to speek, because of his endorsement by Hagee.  I was getting newsletters from the Catholic League darn near every day.  Then McCain said or did something & Donohue said all was forgiven. It was an ugly sight to see, nothing short of shameless.  But then shameless has not been in short supply at all where this subject has come up.  Just a thought.  JATFUR.

RichK

Finder - 

Your words above are kind of shocking to me - "I think the only reason it mattered concerning Romney and Huckabee is because they tried to make it matter." 

You honestly don't think Obama tried to "make it matter" with his comments above?  If a conservative Christian had mouthed the exact same words, that is to join him in "... creating a kingdom right here on Earth..." as an "instrument of God."  Holy mackarel Batman - they would have been run out of the country.

I've said it before, as a true Christian Conservative - if I was subjected to water board torture and had to vote Dem between Clinton and Obama, I would go with Clinton. 

 Obama scares the *&^% out of me, not because he is black, but because he is unknown and a radical.  His foreign policies, his support of a church that bestowed a lifetime achievement on a known hater of this country and violent activist (Farakhan), his support of a preacher who regularly voices hatred for this country and support of 9/11.  The same preacher who married him, baptised his children, and was scheduled to speak at his presidential announcement - until word got out and he was scrapped. 

I think that proves he is trying to "make it matter" 

What matters to me is the wording of it all, he wants the Church to join him in building a "Kingdom" in this country. 

We unloaded the Monarchy sometime ago and the term "kingdom" and how it relates to the Church is a red flag to me.  I think Jim Jones and David Koresch (sp) were building kingdoms as well and look how that turned out. 

Slip of the tongue, or just a wrong choice of words.....or a very revealing glimpse into a mindset none of us can really know but everyone should consider.  Sometimes things dismissed as a faux paux are not. Just like people will excuse a person for their behavior when drunk when it's also an accepted reality that people who are drunk often display true character traits because boozes loosens inhibitions.

It's up to the individual to interpret what he said versus what he meant.  My opinion is that one line is a very telling tale. 

CCC;

I guess I should have put the rest of my thoughts in that post. I've already said elsewhere that Obama scares the crap out of me.

I was just addressing the question about Huckabee and Romney because they are Republicans and that's the party I voted. They scared the crap out of me too. Fanatics of any sort do the same.

Here's the really scary part to me. If he ever gets over his ego and stops to think about what could be, we might end up with 16 years worth of Democrats in the WH.

Clinton is too old to do a couple of tours as VP and then be the Prez. She is however, young enough to do two tours as Prez with Obama as VP. He is then a seasoned VP that could do two more tours as the Prez.

If that doesn't get your adrenalin flowing and your heart racing in fear I'd like to know what kind of meds you're on so I can get some. As much as I don't like HillBilly I'd vote her over any of the other three mentioned. I agree with you that Obama is certainly trying to 'make it matter'. He's trying to make anything matter that will get a vote.

My problem with him is I can't tell what really matters to him other than trying to be President. My biggest fear is that he'll get elected and THEN we'll find out what matters and it may not be anywhere near what people thought it was.

I truly believe that what really matters to him is not in the best interests of the US. 

Mike Heemer

Mike,

I agree with you that there would be a # of people with evacuated intestinal tracts & soiled shorts with the scenario you envision.  But a question.  If it ever came to be, do you think it could be any scarier for this country than what Bush has done?  Not just for the people who are living in it at the present, but for the next few generations who will have to pay the bill he made, the dangers to the Constitution & the broken reputation he has given us?  Can you, or anyone else envision Hillary or Obama doing a WORSE job?  If so, how?  Just curious.  JATFUR.

RichK

Solo

Now, you and I have had our differences, but just this once...and clearly you are very educated and wise "young" man, just once try to have a cogent discussion without bringing Bush into the mix.  Not only must you bring Bush in, but you then insinuate that Obama can't be much worse than Bush.  Wow. In short, just get over it. 

You can't look forward if you are always looking backwards!

Just curious, without mentioning Bush, broken reputation and all that bullcrap -

How do you feel about Obama and his religious comments, given your history of dissertations about church and state?  His comments above don't scare you?  Marsha's insight into the kingdom/cult reference doesn't scare you? 

Mike and Marsha - thanks for your insight -

CCC,

When Mike, or anyone else, for that matter, opines on current &/or future conditions, good or bad, of current candidates, two things must be asked.  Are their fears, as in this case, justified, & then, compared to what or whom?  It's a logical progression & Mike just set the conditions.  That's all.

Getting over Bush, looking backward, not looking forward.  Oh my friend, that's only one way to look at it.  Think of it in a way that has been stated many, many times.  If you don't look back, the less you know.  And those who don't look back, forget their history & are therefore bound to repeat the same mistakes.  I only brought up the biggest mistake this country has produced, in my humble opinion, as a logical comparison.  Actually, it's not mine alone if one bothered to ask approximately 3/4 of the people in this country & most of the rest of the world.  That fact, my friend,  is not going to change, regardless how many in the minority say that the opinions of others should not be counted or mean nothing.  The moment anyone "gets over it," is the moment we begin the downward slide AGAIN.  I also notice that there has been no hesitation at all of people mentioning the real or imagined wrongdoings of the Clinton's.  HMMMMMMM!  I wonder why that is & therefore why anyone would object to my bringing Bush into the picture.  Capisce?

As much as I have respect for Obama's intellect, I'm in with the crowd who are scared of his religious views.  I think he is really no better than Romney, Huckabee or Bush in that regard.  Sorry, one can't mention the religious views of the above without including Bush.  As I wrote before, even Christian evangelicals are not lapping them up as they did with "W".  Maybe there's hople for them & us yet.  JATFUR.

RichK

Solo;

I’ve kind of kept my feelings on the ‘war’ to myself lately. They are not very popular and are generally quite different than what some people want to hear. 

Not that I can’t stand the heat but I just don’t want to hear any more about how the ‘final conflict’ has to be fought for some obscure religious reasons from people who have never (and would not) put on a uniform but are happy to stay at home and ‘support’ those that do.

I think this ‘war’ was the worst mistake this country has made in a long time. I think we will be ‘paying’ for it for at least another generation, maybe two. If we go into Iran I wouldn’t even venture a guess as to how many generations that mistake would involve.

I am also convinced that this was not started on ‘bad information’. I think it was done exactly like the powers that be (can you say Bush?) wanted it to be done. I think they were hell bent on starting this war and didn’t give one hoot what the real data said. The problem is that they did not think it would take this long. They thought the ‘Shock and Awe’ was going to be all they had to do and everyone would be so scared that they would just give up and we would able to go back home in 6-8 months. It was not ‘bad information’ it was bad decision making. They completely under estimated the enemy and miscalculated who the enemy really was.

If we don’t change our tactics and start fighting like this is a real war I’ll be surprised if we can get out of there in another 5 years. If we aren’t careful Iraq will be to us what Afghanistan was to Russia.

My concern with Obama is that I think that his ‘Christian’ stance is a cover for a leaning toward Islam. Why you say? It’s hard to put into words. It’s like that feeling you get when you just ‘know’ there is a snake on the path you are walking.

I’m uncomfortable with his speeches, his mannerisms and his body language. They cause the hair on the back of my neck to stand up. I’ve been in too many situations where paying attention to that ‘feeling’ has kept me from grave bodily injury to pass it off as nonsense.

OK, everybody pile on.

Mike Heemer

Mike,

Obviously, we are in agreement.  I've written before that I don't like to rely on my own "gut" reaction.  On the other hand, when I've ignored it, it usually came back to sink its teeth in my butt.

On bad info, I only diasagree to a point.  There was some bad info.  WMD's & the Sadaam - Al Queada connection.  There might have been more but I'm in spot for time right now & can't research the memory stick.

I guess the point is that there was a horrible combination of bad info, bad decision making preconceived conclusions & maybe  a slew of other things.  What I would like to hear from the candidates is how they are going to fix the mess that we have now & what they are going to do to prevent something like this in the future.  Of course I'm assuming it can be fixed.  JATFUR.

RichK

I am kind of a history buff myself, so I know (as the whole world does) the famous "those who forget...history...bound to repeat..."

I never asked you to forget history, I asked you to focus on the topic at hand without making it a Bush issue.  Is that really so hard? 

Just for the record I will refresh your memory on the original intent of the blog.

Why has Obama not gotten the kind of scrutiny, criticism, and overall panic in the streets about a statement on his "kingdom here on Earth" and his extremely close link with his militant Pastor?  Look at the attention Romney and Huckabee received? 

Help me understand the difference - and in deference to your often cited topic of religion and government, I truly thought you would go there and not once again to Bush, the constitution, and Iraq. 

You will also not see anywhere that I have brought "real or imagined wrongdoings" of any Clinton into this topic - capisce.  If anything, I said I would go with Clinton over Obama!

I am clearly getting too old, too tired, or just way too frustrated over some folks lack of focus when discussing one topic - Obama's religious views as they relate to Romney/Huckabee's. 

If it ever came to be, do you think it could be any scarier for this country than what Bush has done?

Uncle Rich, this is a very intriguing question although I do have a very simple answer. Yes. People wondered if things could get any worse after Nixon. Resoundingly, yes, Jimmy Carter, easily the worst president in our history. He is one of those Bible tThumping Arrogant types who while preaching Christian Values had absolutely no qualms in selling out our allies in Taiwan. That alone, will get him a one ticket to Hell, should it exist. Better yet, he should be forgotten as thoroughly as Hannibal Hamlin.

Then came Bill Clinton, another complete disaster as a human being, who held a fire sale of pardons on his last day, just one of many horrors he visited upon us. I was one who thought, "things can't get worse than the Clinton years". Lo and behold, I was wrong again. So, the specter of a Hillary presidency does scare the bejeesus out of me. I find her ferociously rabid about acquiring power. Her scorched earth policy makes her husband pale in comparison. No matter how terrifying the unknowns are about either McCain or Obama, they will be far less horrifying than a Hillary Czarina government.

It just seems to me that the leadership in this country has been spiralling downwards since LBJ ascended to center stage in 1963. But I can only speak to my era. I'm sure there were many in this country who felt the same about FDR. Probably many were not happy with James Polk. Who really remembers anymore? Even I wasn't around for that one, though that might surprise many. :>)

The scariest thing to me about Obama and McCain is if either one jumps on this moronic, and mislabelled Fair Tax scam. Then it's time to put the rest of the nation up for sale. My God, I happened to be in the library the other day and saw one of these Fair Tax propaganda books and flipped through it. Wha a con. When I get through a couple more of the books I have on my shelves, I think I will take up that challenge by one of the other bloggers to read the rest of this book. Fortunately, being written by morons, it will be easy to get through in about two hours. But I digress. I did want to set the stage for a more thorough discussion on this flim flam topic but not today. Just giving you people, who's ideas I respect, a heads up.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Why isn't Obama getting the type of scrutiny that Romney and Huckabee got?

Because if you criticize him you are accused of being a racist. Does he have a chance of riding that horse into the WH? He's riden it a lot further than he should have.

Regardless of what people really think, they are not going to say too much. Even the press seems to be playing softball patty cake with him. No major media wants to here a hue and cry to boycott them becasue they are racist.

Check out Geraldine Ferrero's statements. I agree with her. Too bad HillBilly didn't have the guts to keep her on.

But what can you expect from someone that didn't have enough sense to kick Slick Willie to the curb. 

Mike Heemer

CCC,

You still haven't picked up on the clue.  OK.  I'll tell you & then I'm pretty much finished with it.  Has it not occured to you that while you take pains to admonish me on commenting negatively on Bush, not word one has been said in the same vein for those who comment negatively on the Clinton's?  Hells Bells.  Hiilary's not even the official nominee of her party yet, let alone president, let alone do anything wrong in that office, but yet she gets to be bashed without nary a word of admonition against it.  Wee bit of a double standard there?  Go ahead & bash her for past wrongs, being married to Slick Willie & throw in unqualified guilt by association why don't you already.  But don't you dare keep saying anything negative @ Bush.  I'm tired.  Good night.  Good Luck.

RK 

Solo - I too am finished.

I still can't understand how you fail to stay focused on one topic.  That topic being Obama and his links to religion, WHEN - you are so vocal on government and religion mixing in the blender of politics. 

Using an excuse like 'they criticize Hillary so I can criticize Bush' (not your exact words but the meaning) in order to NOT add cogent discussion to the topic of the blog is, well - immature and not like you.  

And just for the record - I have not criticized Hillary in this blog at all - the the contrare my friend - I said I would vote for her any day over Obama. 

I guess your real feelings on the compare and contrasting of Obama's free ride with his link to religion compared to the candidates on the right will be forever sealed in your cranium - too bad, because I really did look forward to your comments.

CCC,

I just did what I was forced to do on a number of occasions when you have made similar charges.  I went back & re read the entire thread.  Iknow that with you, I have the deck stacked against me.  You can make a charge, but when I go beack to do the research & show you wrong, you turn it around & make another remark, one time, it was a claim that I had too much time.  It was either that, or silence.

I'm not going to pursue this.  I've grown tired & have lost count of the times you have put words in print, claiming I said them, when I did not say them.  When that has been pointed out, nothing but silence.  When you have used hyperbole & I point it out, either silence or a comment @ the time I take to point it out.  On this blog, I have mentioned Bush, ususally to answer a previously mentioned point.  But to you, I am the instigator.  I DID, IN FACT, address the religious connection @ Obama & gave my opinion.  You missed it, but somehow, according to you, it is my fault.  I don't see how it is my fault that you missed it.  Yet you claim that I can't focus?  If you can tell me how a subject like this, politics & religion, can't be commented on without mentioning the people who have made it such an issue, please do so.  If you ask for examples of the above, please don't expect me to waste even more time to look back & get the same reaction as in other times.  If you want examples, I'm quite sure that you are capable of doing your own research, unless you think it a waste of time.  

I don't mind having my mistakes pointed out to me.  I can't speak @ anybody else, but I learn that way.  But when I am charged with something and it is grounded in hyperbole, missing the point, misinterpretation, lack of comprehension or just plain not reading it, I think it is reasonable that I get a bit hot under the collar, especially if that is a trend.  As I said, I've re read the entire thread.  Do it, don't do it.  I really don't care.  If past situations like this are any indication, nothing will change.

RK

Ok, in all honesty - and in passing the peace pipe.

I just can't understand why somebody cannot answer a question or present an opinion on something as clearcut as politics and religion, acutally more clearcut than that - on Obama and his quoted religious comments compared to Romney/Huckabee. 

Why somebody cannot present an opinion on that without comparing it to "...what Bush has done...danger to the Constitution...broken reputation."  is beyond me.  Maybe it is me - but I just don't understand.

Regarding your claim that I missed your opinoin on Obama and religion, no I didn't.  Finally, in your third reply after I asked twice to stick to the Obama-Religion theme, you mustered up the following:

"I think he is really no better than Romney, Huckabee, or Bush in that regard." 

For somebody who has produced entire thesis presentations (well thought out, presented, and referenced) on politics and religion, that is pretty weak.   That comment was prefaced by  "I only brought up the biggest mistake this country has produced (Bush)." and then you went on to bring up the liberal spiritual mantra of 3/4 of the country and world agree. 

You must have a greatly more intricate mind than 3/4 of the world, because I just can't imagine how that really matters in an opinion about Obama and Religion -

but in the end the only thing that matters is that we wake up in the morning with a pulse.

It has been fun my friend, and I have indeed had to shake my head in disbelief but that is what makes the world turn, the water blue, chlorophyl green, and certain things stink. 

If we all agreed - what a boring place this would be.

Till we meet again

CCC,

re your claim that you didn't miss it.  Reference your reply, "Making it Matter," when you said that Obama scared the *&^% ot of you.

Mike's reply was in agreement with you.

In my reply to Mike's statement, I agreed.  Not only with him, but with you. And that was only my SECOND REPLY. So you did miss it.  And that is exactly what I'm talking about.  I've praised Obama's intellect.  Far from my comments on his religious views.

When you gave your example of what I said @ critisizing the Clinton's was YOUR inference, not my implication.  There was no implication on my part.  It was a statement of fact.  There has been no hesitation to bring up the Clintons.  It was you who decided, once again, to put words in my mouth by incorrectly infering something.  And that's exactly what I'm talking about.

And as long as we're speaking, "Just for the record,"  Who said that YOU critisized Hillary?  I didn't.  And that's exactly what I'm talking about. 

RK