Keeping it Simple

Marsha

I am one of those people on the fence.

But I do respect the process, and the respectful way in which you made your point. I for one will go to the website and make arrangements to sign the petition to give the citizens another chance to vote on this topic.

I can't promise that in the end I will vote for it, but I see no harm in re-visiting the issue for the people of Clay County to decide.

TRUTHHURTS

OK, let's keep it simple:  Right now, the politicians on the BCC vote to elect the chairman of the BCC.  Two years ago, the voters of Clay County said that they wanted to vote for the chairman, rather than leave it to the politicians...If you sign the petition or vote for the petition that Marsha is talking about, you will be taking away your right as a voter to select your chairman.

Furthermore, you will be ignoring the will of the people as expressed two years ago on this issue.  The people have spoken and democracy, I thought, had worked in this case to give more power to the people.  

Marsha says that we live in a democracy by the people and for the people.  I agree.  If the CTLAC agreed as well, then why don't they respect the will of the people on this issue?

Karen Lake

Key

I was in the midst of a senior moment. Thanks for the flashlight 

TRUTHHURTS

It has been stated often on here that government is a work in progress. I believe with the close vote the citizens deserve a chance to revisit this issue. Coming out of the corruption investigations in the county many were undecided and the reason for the close vote. The other 2 amendments produced clear results. Now that 2 years have passed and we are all better able to understand our form of Charter government. And if the solution should be more government for the problems that have plagued the county.

I am for smaller government too. I feel the bigger the govenment the less effective it becomes. As a county if we are on the cutting edge I hope it is not based on big government. I also have concerns about additional legislative powers by ordinance which does not require voter approval.

As far as the cuts in the budget and revenues to the County. We will be making some hard choices about what level of services we will be getting and not getting. The start up cost alone for these additional positions not only the salaries will be costly. I believe the population boom has slowed down for the time being and this issue of increased government can be presented again when the population reaches the level additional government is needed. At that time we will have more revenue to support the cost of additional positions. Along with more people to compete for those positions.

No matter how you intend to vote in the election. I hope everyone will sign a petition to get this on the ballot and respect your fellow citizens who have requested this be placed on the ballot and will need the support of all of us to make this happen.

Please contact claycitizens@claycitizens.com if you would like to sign a petiton. Your support will be appreciated.

Additional legislative powers CANNOT be added to the Chair position unless approved by the voters through an amendment process. Period.

You know this very well Angela and shame on you, for continuing to mislead people. This is exactly how you destroy any credibility: Lying to people and distorting the truth.

And I see you've gained psychic abilities over the weekend: Coming out of the corruption investigations in the county many were undecided and the reason for the close vote. How did you come to that conclusion? Or did you make it up?

Karen Lake

Marsha - great blog.  Your statements were clear and concise, logical and informational, and I appreciate the way you described the issue and options, without rancor, blame, or negativity. 

I voted against the 2 additional commissioners and would like to see that issue on the ballot again.  I have not wavered from my original position, and will never believe that more government is better on any level, be it local, state or national. 

Thank you.

JudyB

This is what the Charter states:

(2) Duties of the County Chair. The office of the County Chair shall have all jurisdiction and powers which are now and which hereafter may be granted to it by the Constitution and laws of Florida, this Charter, or county ordinance, provided that such powers shall be exercised in a manner consistent with this charter.

The power which are now are specifically listed in the Charter.

Additional power which hereafter may be granted and it goes on to state by county ordinance.

Consistent with this Charter means legislative powers only for Commissioners.

In the Charter it states: County Chair shall

Could you show me any sentence in the Charter where it states specifically no further powers shall be granted unless a majority of the electors voted to give them those powers.

If they did not intent for County Chair to have additional powers by ordinance why is that phrase included in the Charter.

In the last election when this was decided it was clear people were divided. They were clear on amendment 1 and 3. When it comes to amendment 2 the 5+2 it was very evenly divided.

Amendment 1- 42,896 yes   6615 no Code of Ethics

Amendment 2 - 25,472 yes  23,138 no   5+2

Amendment 3 - 36,007 yes  11,572 no Non-interfernce.

After speaking with numerous citizens and voters many expressed their views on amendment 1 and 3. Many weren't certain about amendment 2. If you look at the results of 1 and 3 there is no ambiguity there. You do not find that same result in amendment 2 which is the 5+2.

It was clear even the Commissioners were unaware of how the Charter form of government was suppose to be ran. Otherwise we would have had no investigations.

If the petition gets on the ballot and it passes, there will be NO PERMANENT CHAIRMAN or "at large Commissioner".  As it sits now the "Chairman" is designated by the other Commissioners as a ceremonial position with no power.  It is like being selected by the Teacher for the day to hand out graded homework. An Elected Chairman such as what we're facing now is permanent for four years.  Two more Commissioners means two more salaries that automatically increase along with benefits that we have no say over.

In the theme of "keeping it simple".......do you want to pay for 7 Commissioners or 5?

Personally I'd rather have 2 MORE TEACHERS, OR 2 MORE POLICE OFFICERS then two more Commissioners.  How about more radar guns that will not only make traffic safer but it will also add revenue in the way of tickets holding aggressive drivers responsible.

I am for LESS Goverment, what's on the books will give you more Goverment and a higher tax bill.

Hire a Teacher, hire a Cop, we don't need anymore Commissioners.

Here is how I look at the problem.
A few months ago when an individual (firefighter I believe) said he was going to run for Commissioner, I asked him if he won would he set up office and devote 32-40 a week at the County building in Green Cove. I was lambasted by more than one person informing me that this was not a full time job. Could someone please repeat how much  a County Commissioner makes a year just in salary , than add any travel and benefits.
So we now have 5 County Commissioners making $255,000.00 plus benefits for part time work.
Our county is not a rich county , so we are told, so YES let’s add two more part time clogs.
Where is that  petition, and guess how I will vote.
One last thing to think about where do you think those two extra people will come from? I’m talking about area of county, you already know where one will come from. The votes will be lopsided.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

I will be glad to email you the Petition if you have your email open on this site and send me an email so I can send it back.  You can also visit ClayCitizens.com for the petition if you prefer to not have an open email through MCS.

Economic strife is upon us both locally and nationally.  I commend your common sense for believing we can neither afford nor need two more County Commissioners.

I hope anyone involved in Law Enforcement or Education will see it this same way.  We could use more teachers, more money for Education.  We could also use more Cops on the street.

More Commissioners we just don't need.  Taxpayers are out there clipping 50 cent coupons to make ends meet....whatever their salaries and benefits equal....it would be better spent somewhere else.

I would have sent you an email except that you don't have it open so I have to address what you've said here.  

If you truly mean that you have respect for the process and would sign a petition based upon that belief why did what Karen Lake said change it?  The process is no different, the people voted for 5 Single Member Districts before the CRC changed it to 7.  This has been part of the problem, people saying "the people voted for this".....what did they vote for first that was not given a chance to work?  That answer would be the 5 Single Member District.  Standing on what was voted for that the CRC put forth is propoganda, the Single Member District was never given a chance, it was changed/enhanced/embellished by the CRC.

Do you support what was voted for first, second or do you support the process and let the voters have one more chance to speak?

It seems to me the only "fair" solution, economics aside since both carried a majority vote is to respect the process, sign the petition and put it before the voters one more time.

I admired your stance of support for the process, I hope you follow through with that because it is the only truly "fair" thing to do, even if you end up voting against it.....you at least respected the process and gave it a chance.

I hope you reconsider.

I live on the edge my account is always open. I Just hope must people are adults, I have ran into a rabid rat , but if she had any idea what my life has been she would understand that her bite does not even begin to break the skin.
Have a nice day

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

I am all for keeping it simple. We have enough representation now with five commissioners. What we need is for them to do what’s in the best interest of their constituents and what they promised to do when they were elected. The success of a sorry a*** politician is the poor memory of the voters. Marsha I am so glad to see you back in the thick of things. You go girl!

Marsha

I think what made me balk is the part where Karen stated "If you sign the petition or vote for the petition that Marsha is talking about, you will be taking away your right as a voter to select your chairman." That kind of scared me off. I beleive I voted for the 7 last time around, but feel silly when I say I can't remember what logic I used to justify it in my mind.

I must be honest here , I beleive I am totally confused after reading all the posts. I don't know what to think.

On the one side I agree with most beacuse I am all for the least amount of government, less is best.

On the other hand, am I thowing away as a voter the oppurtunity to select a chairman?

TRUTHHURTS

Now, this is what i have heard from the inside.  The two new commission salaries will be coming out of the current commission salaries and will not affect taxpayers. However, this may not be true and is just what i have heard first hand from a commissioner.  On the other hand, we already have enough represntation in this county and do not need the potential for more salaries.......... if what i have heard is not true. 

FTD, were you talking about the commission salary in total between all five or salary for each, b/c if that's for each you're dead wrong. 

We have enough rep. as it is and we do not need more, if five can't do the job, then seven can't either, i'll find a petition on my own.

You don't get to select the speaker of the house or senate majority leader, so why is it so important to select the chairman of the commission.  He or she hold no extra power, he or she recieves the same vote and the only purpose it to mediate.  This is not a democarcy as stated before, this is a republic. 

if you agree with less government, then you agree with less commissioners and you're nto throwing away your vote, you may have the choice to to vote for against two more commissioners and you will also have the choice of voting for or against the two new commissioners.

Foxx

I am laughing so hard at myself right now. I don't think my brain has been working to good today.

I guess all it really took was to have it stated differently to counter my brain fart.

Thanks.

Marsha, thanks for calling me back, I think it clicked in. I will go to the web site and get the petition.

TRUTHHURTS

Do either of you feel comfortable with first names rather then user names?  Truth, if a Chairmans position is largely "ceremonial" then why would you care if you had a choice in who's it?  If it's only ceremonial why the intense fight to have one?  I still want to try and keep this focus on the economics which leads me to Foxx.  I already know your name but would never use it unless you first said "ok"

Even if the salaries next year will be shared, you have four years to consider, you have benefits to consider.  Pay raises are automatic and are aligned with growth, benefits also increase over time, what it costs us in 2009, it will cost us more in 2010 and 2011 etc.  By that time consider the fact that we may not even be able to petition to remove them. 

I don't know what the numbers are, but again.....let's set a conservative salary at 37K a year.  Will the county benefit more by that amount going to a Commissioner, or to go for Education....or Law Enforcement, how about services for our elderly, handicapped or abused children?   Ever heard that saying about "give them an inch and they will take a mile"?

That money, whatever amount is is and whatever it will grow to in four years is better spent somewhere else.  I read an article about updating the timing on the lights at intersections....anywhere from 3-5K per intersection.  We cannot take on the intersections on State Roads, but we could for county roads.  How many County Intersections could be updated in one year with that money?  How much gas would that save, how much time would that save commuters, if you take that and consider the number of intersections that could be changed in a years time and what it could mean to the average commute, multiply that by next year and the year after......do you get what I am saying?

We don't need 7 Commissioners, we have enough problems with 5 and adding 2 more will not resolve problems it will just add more.  It will be harder to stop then it will be to just not go there to begin with.

Based upon the economics.....again.....we don't need 2 more Commissioners.

Please, don't think that i'm for more commissioners.  I am truely agianst more government.  Two more at-large commissioners defeats the purpose of having five commissioners that make up the rep. of the entire county.  Those five commissioners can focus on their districts while hopefully having the greather good of the entire county in mind.

Marsha, don;t worry about not using my name, i'm proud of it and while i have made mistakes here and elsewhere, would never want to make bad name for myself.

Here it is.

Matthew Birman

Marsha

It's Marie.....shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell no one

TRUTHHURTS

Marsha,

As for the "paying for 2 more teachers" theory," the BCC doesn't pay for teachers, the School Board pays teacher salaries, so this issue has nothing to do with teachers.

As for "paying for more policemen," the salaries will remain the same for 7 commissioners as they are for 5!  Of course, the CTLAC and Marsha know this, but they would rather not deal with those stubborn facts.  Let's face it, this has nothing to do with more $$$$ for policemen. 

Bloggers,

Rather than rehash over and over the rationale that the voters used to create the 5+2 model, may I respectfully direct everyone to this link which explains the rationale for the model.  The voters of Clay County, the media, and various groups including the CTLAC had this exact same debate two years ago.

After months and months of debates, letters to editor, there was an election and voters decided to go with the 5+2 system.  They remind me of the Democrats in the 2000 election: let's keep counting the votes again and again until the results change.

Here is the link: http://www.claycountygov.com/BCC/CRC/CRC.htm

Foxx-

I hate to break it to you but the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate are not purely ceremonial...they are the two of the most powerful politicians in Tallahassee other than the Governor.

They are the heads of their respective bodies and have appointment powers (like the new County Chair position), and as we see this legislative session and every other legislative session for that matter, they set the agenda for their respective bodies...not a small thing.

I would rather have the voters select that person than have the politicians select that person.

Karen Lake

Thanks, it is just so much easier to talk here with first names, call me crazy.  Marie is a name near and dear to my heart.  My Step-Mother, the most peaceful loving woman to ever walk this earth has Marie for a middle name.  My love so strong for her, that my first born Daughter carries that same middle name.  Matthew, I would just never be the first to mention someones real name in the blogs, it's not my place.  I am glad you're comfortable with it. 

As I started out in this blog and want to try and remain, for me it's a matter of less Goverment not more and I will repeat this until the deadline has passed for this petition.  I appreciate that perhaps for differing reasons you will both sign the petition.  If I could be so bold as to encourage you to also hand out a couple to people you know you can talk to about such things.  The ripple effect in a body of water can be ever so slight but productive, or it can be strong, forever effecting what it washes over. 

Perhaps as time goes on we can get some real solid figures and disect exactly what it's going to cost and where else the money could go that might better serve the people of Clay County.  One doesn't have to know for certain where else it can go and what it can do to understand more Goverment can cost us in ways into the future that we cannot even fathom at the present time. 

At the moment due to time constraints though my focus is on the petition itself, one step at a time, in incriments......the same way your Goverment works. 

 Foxx give me a break that is for all five. I believe they get around $51,000 each the chairman may get extra. I just rounded off.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

Tax dollars pay all of the public salaries so it matters not if the BCC or School Board pays teachers salaries or the Sheriff’s budget includes the deputies salaries.  It is all paid with tax dollars.  What is saved in one area can be applied to other areas. Instead of looking at individual department budgets, we need to look at the overall county budget. 

We don’t need to be paying two more commissioners.  The BCC salaries are currently based on a state formula and have been growing as the population grows.  So, as Marsha stated earlier, how will we know how much the salaries will grow over the next few years, along with the rising cost of benefits.

I don’t know about all of you folks, but in my household we are constantly thinking of ways to save money as prices rise each day in the grocery stores and at the gas pump, and the housing situation continues to decline.

School programs are in jeopardy and higher education tuition is rising.  Paying two additional commissioners salaries and benefits doesn’t make much sense when we are looking at budget cuts everywhere.

Let’s at least get the amendment on the ballot and let all of the voters decide.  

  Paying two additional commissioners salaries and benefits doesn’t make much sense when we are looking at budget cuts everywhere.

It all boils down to the above statement by Marsha,

I have petitions, I will mail them to you, if you can't get one though the website or make it to where there will be a signing party. I will even pay the postage to send it to you.

Jimmaxie@bellsouth.net

Marsha, welcome back, and thanks for putting things in order.

Signing petitions will allow the issue to be qualified and placed on November's ballot.  Until then, debating the merits of a County Commission with five or seven members and a permanent or rotating chairman is only an academic exercise in political science.

Now's the time to take care of the business at hand - getting the necessary number of signatures.  Only after that's accomplished (again) will the discussion of the merits become meaningful.

Folks are welcome to contact me at the e-mail address below and I'll make sure they get a petition to sign.  Then we can get down to some serious, meaningful discussion about choices voters will have in November.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

In all of the discussions about being able to vote for a chairman ilo the current method of rotating chairs, isnt it true that only one person is running for that chairman position and if that is true, then we arent really voting on chairman at all, are we? Please tell me that more than one person is qualified to run for that position.

Kurt Musser

You are correct in that only current District 1 County Commissioner Rob Bradley has announced he's running for the office, except for Commissioner Harold Rutledge, who had announced but then withdrew after Bradley announced.

Of course, finding someone to run against in the election for the chairmanship isn't Bradley's job.  It's not his fault voters won't have a choice when deciding who'll man the county's first permanent chairmanship.  There's still the possibility that someone may step forward to challenge him, though that is unlikely given Bradley's huge head start on campaign finances.

The CTLAC-proposed amendment to eliminate the scheduled addition of two at-large Commissioners to the current BCC should not become a referendum on Rob Bradley as chairman.  It should be determined by the decisions of each individual voter on whether the county would be better served by the current five-person Commission or a larger seven-person panel.

One final point.  It's been suggested that CTLAC bringing this issue before voters this year ignores the wishes of more than 25,000 voters in the previous election.  Why is that such a crisis?  Big deal.  We do the same type every time we force an incumbent official to run for re-election.

If the 25,000 who voted in favor of adding the two Commissioners in 2006 still feel the same way in November, they can re-elect their concept.  It is not asking them to complete a major chore to mark "yes" or "no" one more time on their ballots.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Sorry, Kurt, the nature of politics being as convoluted as it is, especially in Clay County, I overlooked the eloqent simplicity of the point you made.

On the one hand of theory, people are defending the right of voters to choose a new chairman.  On the other hand of reality, though, they are defending a choice that apparently will not exist this election cycle.

Thanks for the reminder to KISS.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Mike

No problem. After trying to wade through some of the mini novels on some recent blogs, I couldnt help but see such an opportunity to add some simplicity to a possible oxymoron in politics.

I am a firm believer in letting the people speak through their vote.

Kurt Musser

I like choices in my life – even with essential purchases (food, fuel) I have choices.  I also like choices at the polls (and yes, even the “lesser of two evils” is a least an option).  With no opposition for the Chair position, what choices do the voters actually have? 

If the amendment to remove the position is not on the ballot, there will be NO choice for the chairman position as no votes are needed when there is no opposition.  It’s chairman by default - for at least 4 years. 

If the amendment IS on the ballot, then we’ll have the option to either vote Yes for the only candidate, or YES on the amendment to remove the two at-large commissioner positions.

So, let's get the petitions signed and validated, and when the amendment is on the ballot, the voters can make their choice - to have, or to have not.