The Representation Myth
Someone sent me an e-mail that referred to an argument often used against the current five-member County Commission, where each member is elected only by the voters of their district, and in favor of the planned expansion that will add to new members to the BCC, each of whom will be elected by voters from the entire county. The e-mail cited arguments that make claims I've been referring to as the Single-Member Representation Myth. Supporters of at-large elections say County Commissioners who are elected only by their district voters won't be concerned with issues facing Clay County residents who can't vote for them. That because they are elected only by the residents of their individual district, they have morphed into being only District Commissioners, not County Commissioners. That their duties and fields of concern have been cut to one-fifth of what they were when they were elected at-large. For example, the mythical premise is that a County Commissioner from Fleming Island could not be voted for by a resident of Clay Hill and therefore will have no interest in the concerns or issues of Clay Hill or any of its residents, deferring instead only to the concern and judgment of the Commissioner from Clay Hill. The Single-Member Representation Myth is that County Commissioners will put on blinders at the boundaries of their own districts. Of course, that isn't true, not unless the elected official's biggest concern isn't doing his or her job, but getting re-elected. The single-member district Charter Amendment only changed the way Commissioners were elected, not their job description. The duties of County Commissioners remained unchanged, exactly what they were before being elected in single-member districts. The at-large proponents using that myth will point out that you already see examples of current County Commissioners deferring in some ways to the commissioners from the districts where an issue many arise. Of course the Commissioners do that. It's common practice in any legislative body. That same district deference was a part of BCC practice back when they were elected at-large and will continue to be a common BCC practice whether its members are elected by single-member districts, at-large, or some hybrid of the two. There may well be differences in the way elected officials approach their jobs as representatives of the people, but those differences result from who gets elected, not how they get elected. Michael S. Mann Related: OneMann's blog | login or register to post comments | printer friendly version | Tags: BCC | five single-districts
Submitted by Angela on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 12:26pm.
When the real rubber meets the road. Is when the people in a district feel they are not being represented by the person who runs for that position and gets elected. Then their votes count for nothing because they get swamped by the votes of people in other districts. That makes them without representation in that district for 4 years and the attitude "who cares" by those elected officials they didn't need their vote anyway. Just take a visit to some of those candidates in single member districts that have hefty campaign contributions from people who are not even in their district and some not even in the county. Most with links to the growth industry. What are they attempting to do buy an election? If it's true as been said on the blogs those candidates only care about their district and they don't represent the county. Which is another myth on the blogs. I don't live in Mike Mann's district but I will work to get him in office because I think he is the right man for the job. I will visit and talk with people in his district. I have but one vote at election time. But I can speak with many and show them why I think he's the best man for the job. I would suggest anyone that would like to see Mike Mann get elected in District 3 but does not live there. Copy this email and visit as many people as you can in District 3. This is a crime under the ethics laws of attempting to solicit county business while being a member of the CRC. Asked the voters one question is this what they want representing them on the Commission for the next 4 years. From: Al DelaparteSent: Wed 5/3/2006 11:32 AMTo: Fritz BehringCc: Rich J. O'ConnellSubject: Travis Cummings Fritz: Yesterday, Travis Cummings visited my office to solicit the county’s insurance business. Though his name was familiar, I did not immediately recognize him as Chairman of the Charter Review Commission. I am concerned that this may not be an appropriate time for us to enter into, or consider entering into, a relationship with Mr. Cummings, or his company. I am inclined to diplomatically advise him of this via letter but in view of recent events in the county believe a higher level approach might be warranted. Please also note that the yesterday’s email issue involved Pete Cummings. I don’t know what, if any, relationship there is between them—other than the same last name—but I wanted to call this to your attention. Please let me know if you require any additional information, or have any suggestions in resolving this matter. Thanks--AL Al Delaparte CPCU Risk Manager Board of County Commissioners Clay County P.O. Box 1366 477 Houston Street Clay County Administration Building This email speaks volumes to me about a person's character. What people are doing when they think we aren't looking. If you contact Mike Mann I'm certain he will give you some brochures to give to the voters in district 3 to support positive change in the county. I think the statement by Mike Mann is 100% right: "There may well be differences in the way elected officials approach their jobs as representatives of the people, but those differences result from who gets elected, not how they get elected." Get out the vote! Submitted by rpmachala on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 12:44pm.
Karen, If getting elected and re-elected is all a person is worried about, then they are part of the problem in this country. Let's talk about how the citizens are represented. I want someone to spend his or her time representing me. And I can't have that when someone is elected at-large but fails to win the majority of votes in my district. I believe there are times when what is best for the county may not be the best for me. That is reality; but a single-member representative has more time available to convince their constiteunts of the value of that decision. If they are unsuccessful, they don't get re-elected. Maybe next time they should brush up on their communication skills. After all, political office was never meant to be a career choice. Now let's see what at-large voting got me and my fellow citizens in District One; Christy Fitzgerald did not win District One but had enough special interest money to spread throughout the county to win. For that I got a major player in a major county scandal; an appointed district commissioner that was instrumental, both inside and outside the BCC chambers, in giving the citizens of Clay County an unwanted garbage tax (failure to pay could result in the loss of your home - great idea!) and left after achieving his goal; then I got another appointed commissioner who doesn't appear to want to abide by the spirit of his appointment. He is now not only running unopposed for the position he pushed for so adamantly as a member of the CRC, but also thought it was a great idea to place in the amendment the statement that additional powers could be granted to the Chairman via ordinance. I must say, I really got a lot out of THAT round of voting. Is it possible that you are against single-member district voting because you fear the people in that person's district may actually KNOW what that person is like and what having him/her as a commissioner would mean, and how much tougher it is to recall someone who was elected by the entire county? It IS about how they do their job, but citizens in a given district should have the only voice in who represents them. Politics, and representation, should always stay at the lowest possible (local) level. Submitted by Sunflower on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 1:18pm.
Mike - well said, as usual. As a resident of District 1, I did not vote for Ms. Fitzgerald, and she actually would not have won if we'd had single member districts - Tom Platt would have been our commissioner but he didn't have the backing from the special interests people in other districts. Hmmm - I wonder what might have been... Then, when Ms. Fitzgerald was suspended from her position (and thus far has been found not guilty of any charges), the door opened for John Thrasher's appointment, and when he was finished with his job as lobbyist for Advanced Disposal, the door opened for Mr. Bradley who was on the committee who created the position for which he is running unopposed. I smell a skunk in the woodshed. As just a regular citizen of Clay County, I see just the same old political mess, with greed again trying to conquer all. I don't like it. Karen, you can rant and ramble and throw you insults 'til the cows come home and you will never convince me that these two at-large positions are in the best interest of the citizens of Clay County. Angela, thanks for your attention to detail and posting that email re: Mr. Cummings. I too will be working to help Mike Mann even though I can't cast my vote for him and I know that when he is elected, he will represent us even though we are not in District 3 but are citizens of the county. Judy Link to petition: http://24.23.126.8/Petition.pdf Submitted by Sunflower on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 1:24pm.
I find it amusing that when I finally submitted my previous post, that Mr. Machala has expressed the same thoughts as I (as District 1 voters). It was not planned and I have not spoken with him about this at all. He said it better though. Judy Link to petition: http://24.23.126.8/Petition.pdf
Submitted by Key2life on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 1:35pm.
Angela, It'd be refreshing after so many months of the same old, tired public records if you could debate the issues based on the merits of the arguments and not something you're using to "trump" the charges. First, the best candidate for the District 3 seat will be determined through public debates this summer and decided upon by electors in August. You guys (CTLAC) make a lot about the amount in his campaign account but theoretically speaking, every candidate has the same opportunity to build a treasury account as all the other candidates. The fact that some do not is not a reflection on those that do not. Travis' hard work is paying off... If you check in on Mike Mann's campaign account, two of his three donations (75%) come from the development industry (builder, realtor, appraiser). Does that make him less prone to influence from this population sect as another candidate? He took their money. Robert, There was NO charter provision that said a district commissioner running an at-large race has to win a majority in that specific district. The charter provisions states that the candidate must live in the district. Period. The fact that Tom Platt had a majority of votes in the district but couldn't win an at-large race is largely due to his faulty campaigning. If he knew he had the votes inside the district boundary then he should have gone outside his district and campaigned because that's what the Charter says you need to do. School Board members do it and they understand the dynamics of an at-large seat. I'm sorry Mr. Platt failed to understand the charter. Karen Lake Submitted by Angela on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 1:43pm.
Funny Karen I've always heard spots on a leopard never change. Submitted by read44 on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 2:06pm.
Am I wrong or are there only two people here defending the choice of 7 Commissioners versus five? I am trying to keep up.
Submitted by Marsha on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 2:08pm.
Mike, great idea to pick this thing apart one piece at a time. It's also great to point out that although we may only to be able to vote for one who else sits in those positions is everyones concern. It's important to speak with your family, friends and neighbors all over CC about the upcoming elections and help clear up some of the misinformation that can occur. Angela thanks for the repost, information like that is never tired when it's pertinent to ongoing issues. The only "tired old argument" I see here is calling everything "a tired old argument". It's not all about getting someone elected or getting a petition on the ballot, it's also about getting people registered and encouraging them to pay attention and understand what will be before them. It's time for whoevers been sleeping on the sidelines to wake up and get involved.
http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice on 7 or 5 Commissioners. Submitted by clayvoter on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 2:12pm.
Karen, I have been looking at several different candidates (not just Cummings) financial records. When a candidate already has more than 30 FIVE HUNDRED dollar donations from special interest groups I would hardly call that hard work...well connected maybe, but not hard work. There have been local fund raisers for certain candidates that have raised 10-15K in two hours. Nice little "get-together" maybe, but not hard work. When a group of people back certain candidates, and "help" them get funded and elected thats fortuitous probably, but not hard work. Ask the candidate that goes out day after day and talks to people in his district and earns one vote at a time. THAT is hard work. Bloggers, go to the debates, talk to candidates, and do not forget to follow the $$$$$$. Make an educated, informed decision. There is only one race unopposed (Chairman) There are two candidates in the 2 year seat, and District 5, Three candidates in District 1 and District 3 (Mike Mann's) And if that's not enough there is the Constitutional races.
Submitted by Marsha on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 2:20pm.
I think the only fair statement to make is that most of the people who participate on the subject matter in the blogs are against the 7 Commissioners. Many don't comment on the subject, or comment at all on anything most of the time. Mikes point here is to make sure everyone understands that the 5 Single Member District changes only the election process, not the scope of their job. It gives the average Citizen a chance to run for Office and not be run out by the Candidates who have big political money on their side. http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice on 7 Commissioners or 5 Submitted by Angela on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 2:35pm.
The greatest thing about single member districts is when the election is over it's the votes that count not the dollars. You can never stop the flood of money from special interest they will always try to influence elections. Single members gives the people of that district the opportunity to get the votes to elect your Commissioner. Special interest can't buy your vote. There is power in that vote. In numbers you have greater power. Clay County has an opportunity to make some real changes in this election cycle. We have alot of seats up for grabs this time around. Don't sit on the sidelines, be a player. Talk to your neighbors and friends. Then get out the vote. Submitted by ClayCountyCurmudgeon on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 2:57pm.
As most of you know, I rarely comment on local politics. Why? Probably because I just don't know enough about it - other than to know I don't want another repeat of the Queen. With that said - How can the value of the 2 at large members be argued for when no other legislative body (that I know of in my limited civics experience) has at large representatives? After all, I am represented by Cliff Stearns and Cliff Stearns only as far as my representative - and I can only vote for Cliff Stearns or anybody else running against him. I can't vote for Corrine Brown (no laughs please) or for her opponent. There are no at-large State Reps - why is this if it is such a good idea? Personally, in my limited civics knowledge - I prefer single member districts.
Submitted by Marsha on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 3:43pm.
Are there any counties in Florida with a comparable population that has two at large Commissioners or 7 Commissioners period?
http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for Choice 7 Commissioners or 5
Submitted by OneMann on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 3:44pm.
CCC, you're right that you've never had the opportunity to vote in an at-large, statewide election to send a representative to the State Legislature. There aren't any at-large members of the Legislature. The Charter Review Commission, that originally proposed the Charter Amendment to add the two at-large positions to the BCC, said in its Official Overview that the hybrid system electing members of the County Commission is modeled after the Congress of the United States. Members of the U.S. House of Representatives are elected by their district, while Senators are elected by voters from throughout their entire states. The local system the CRC modeled after Congress failed to realize that the two Houses of Congress must each separately approve legislation before it becomes law, the Senate does not hold a gavel over the House, and that there is an elected president with veto power over the combined efforts of both. The part of Congress used as a model was, in reality, the differing method of election - and even that isn't accurately modeled. The CRC failed to realize that there are no members of Congress elected at-large. U.S. Senators are elected in district elections, too. It's just that their districts are usually larger than the districts in which members of the House of Representatives are elected. Michael S. Mann michaelsmann@comcast.net
Submitted by finder on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 5:46pm.
OneMann; The other thing about the Senators being elected by larger districts is that each district has two. So should we now have 5 single district types plus one or two at-large from each district? I don't think so. I also like their fuzzy math with their 60/80% is almost the same as the CTLAC $37K. There is some truth in that. The numbers really aren't that far apart if you stop there. But when you do a balance sheet you have to use all the costs. 5 times $37K is quite a bit less than 7 times the number CPVR is using. Plus we don't have to worry about the cost going up every year without voter approval. There are a LOT of people out there working full time jobs for less than $37K. If the commissioner is in it for the money then she/he is in it for the wrong reason. Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice in Nov.
Submitted by OneMann on Mon, 04/21/2008 - 7:55pm.
Earlier a reference was made to my list of campaign contributors. But two of three is 66 percent not 75 percent. It's an easy percentage to remember, the same as CPVR's amendment would require only on Charter Amendments proposing the elimination of an elected position in Clay County government. It is true that one is a property appraiser and one a builder. They'd be folks I've met through this MCS community website, Marsha and Baxley. (The only other contributor is a lifelong family friend and former FBI agent.) I'm not sure two-thirds proves a trend when it's really two out of three. But when someone submits a report with dozens of contributors and at least 53 percent are from the growth industry and 56 percent comes from outside Clay County, as was Travis Cummings' report for the final three months of last year, then I think you can detect a more meaningful trend. Finder, follow the money. That's always good advice when looking at any aspect of government. Michael S. Mann
Submitted by Marsha on Tue, 04/22/2008 - 5:07pm.
Realtors and Appraisers are in "Real Estate" not development. If another house was never built Realtors and Appraisers would still be in business. Most of the work that comes from development/new construction where Appraisals are concerned is usually people handpicked by the Developer/Builder, and it's a closed circle to get into. Many builders work hand in hand with a specific Lender who has Staff Appraisers. We are Independent Fee Contractors. The bulk or even a signficant percentage of our business is not new construction in any of our offices. It is resales and refinances. We do more relocation, and retrospective Appraisals then new construction by far. I was in favor of the moratorium and hope that the BCC will have the good sense to extend it. http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for Choice in November 7 Commissioners or 5 People are talking about ...Here are the recent blog postings with the most comments. |
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Mike Mann,
Obviously you and your emailing friend have become victims of believing in mythical legends in your own minds.
Reality is, when the rubber meets the road - four other districts don't get you elected nor re-elected. You may appreciate this truth more in November when people who want you in the job, can't elect you, Mike and you really need the votes.
Karen Lake