The Salary Question
Mike, I am curious about a statement you made on MCS: "It didn't matter if citizens paid them $1 a year, 37K, or that obscene $60,000-plus they are currently receiving. Public service in return for their paychecks was not a concern, or certainly not a priority;" I have a question for you: Given the "purity" of your intentions to run for a BCC seat, why haven’t you denounced any salary in favor of public service for the sake of servancy to Clay Countians? It would seem to be a no-brainer in terms of your actions being in line with your words. The speculation is – and many people in the county seem to be in agreement – that you need this job. It comes across as more than just a little disingenuous that you’d accept a salary at all especially given your position on salaries, benefits and retirement to members of the BCC. In fact, members of CTLAC would be delighted if you denounced a salary, benefits and retirement. Will you be turning your salary, benefits and retirement back over to the county if you win the election?
I got that e-mail Monday night from Karen Lake, a supporter of Citizens for Protection of Voters Rights and former member of the Charter Review Commission, who has blogged here often as Key2Life. Normally, I'd answer an e-mail with an e-mail, but feel this forum, which generated the curiosity, is appropriate for this answer. So, here goes ... Karen, the statement that aroused your curiosity merely pointed out elected officials hiring obviously-incompetent family and/or political cronies aren't really doing the job they were hired to do, so they hadn't earned their salary no matter what it was. Curious that you would find that statement curious. Since I have little faith in your ability to understand fairly simple statements (like the one you are curious about) and even less faith in your willingness to try to understand, I hesitated to even answer you. But since you are a citizen of Clay County (and though I have to begin with your distorted premise as usual) I'll answer your questions - in public so folks won't have to get it through your usual misunderstood or purposely distorted translation. First, the compensation issue. I've been consistent all along. The current salary for local County Commissioners is too high, and I have supported, and will continue to support, efforts that will make it more reflective, in my opinion, of the part-time status the Home Rule Charter assigns the job. With Charter Amendment proposals by both your CPVR group and Citizens for Term Limits and Accountability this November, voters will actually have three compensation options from which to choose. They can leave it as currently planned, with the reduction to the low-to-mid-40s with pay raises based on a state formula, or pass an amendment. I will support with my personal vote the CTLAC amendment proposal that would lower salaries to $37,000. That propsoal will get my vote because I prefer local voters determining if or when County Commissioners have earned a raise, not the population-based formula for determining raises your PAC is trying to protect. I also think the total compensation package needs to be addressed openly by the BCC, something I'll try to do if elected so citizens can join the discussion about an appropriate benefits. Maybe they feel things are fine. OK, great. Bringing regular folks into that discussion, heck, even having that discussion, about the full compensation package is overdue. Who the hell claimed purity on my behalf? It sure hasn't and won't be me. I believe in the basic goodness of people and I imagine every other candidate for every office has motives as pure to them as mine are to me. We all want to be a part of a process that makes Clay County government better. That whole topic is just more of your typical distorted political campaign crap intended to distract from discussion of any real issues. The difference among candidates isn't anyone's purity of motive, it's just a difference in our perspective of local government process and goals. Your "no-brainer" conclusion that I should denounce my salary if elected was, indeed, apparently reached without use of a brain. You started with my statement, distorted it into a position I've never taken to reach an incorrect premise (that I should denounce compensation to meet your fantasy version of my consistency) which you think I should use to reach the same "no-brainer" decision? No, thanks. I'd rather not ignore my brain when reaching decisions, especially when they're the same decisions you've already reached. Denouncing salary to please CTLAC, you and CPVR, or any other group of potential political supporters, would be making a decision I don't believe is proper, one made only in the name of political expediency. That's the kind of political BS I abhor and don't practice now while I'm campaigning and won't if elected. And, Karen, so you don't mistake it again, that isn't generated from a sense of superiority or purity, it's just the way I think government business should be conducted. As a County Commissioner, I'll take my paycheck, whatever voters determine it should be. I'll try hard to earn it in the way I told people I'd earn it, and then say thanks when I cash it. I'd want to more than earn my pay if it was still going to $60,000 or if it was $6,000. I assume, and hope, that does absolutely nothing to separate me from any other candidate. Second, my personal "needs," financial or otherwise, are beyond the scope of anything other than your own imagination or, given your propensity for mostly just repeating your group's party lines while launching a political attack by distorting logic or truth, someone else's imagination. You know incredibly little about my personal life and goals, or my personal financial requirements now or for the future. There is a reason it's called a personal life, something that does not completely disappear with office. It is, after all, personal and really has absolutely nothing to do with job performance as an elected official. In general, though, would I object to adding a part-time job's income to my family's revenue stream? As I would imagine is true for far more Clay County families than not, hell, no. We're paying more every time we fill up at the pump, too. Adding to the Mann family cash flow, even in the tiniest of increments, isn't an idea I find offensive. It's just the opposite if the addition came from people hiring me to do a job that allowed me to help my community. As I stated before, I've never even intimiated that I oppose compensation for elected officials, when they earn it instead of hiring another incompetent branch off the family tree. Curious that you find that so curious. If, however, you think I or anyone else who "needs" a job would choose to go through the months-long, gas-guzzling, privacy-invading, physically-demanding and personally-expensive job interview process of a campaign (one I began knowing I would be competing against your very well-financed CRC compadre), just to have a political-underdog's chance of personal financial well-being at $37K or $40-something thousand annually for four years, well, that must be another of those conclusions you reached without your brain. There are much easier to get, many of them higher paying than whatever BCC members will receive. And, given the extraordinary amount of negative aspects associated with being a public figure and having to deal with certain people's desire to play winning politics at whatever low level it takes, there's more pure crap to deal with than a septic tank cleaner. The bottom line, so even you can't distort it, is this: I have and will continue to support smaller, more appropriate in my opinion, compensation packages for County Commissioners. If I'm elected, I'll do the very best job I can in return for whatever folks decide they want to pay me. What I do with whatever that paycheck, as long as it's not illegal, will be is none of your business. I find nothing disengenuous or inconsistent about it. Michael S. Mann Related: OneMann's blog | login or register to post comments | printer friendly version | Tags: county election
Submitted by bigmig9999 on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 1:25pm.
read44... If by "more interesting" you mean the same 5 or 6 people all agreeing with one another and telling each other how wonderful they are, while at the same time bashing another blogger who haven't even commented in awhile... I guess you have a point. I've found it rather boring lately. As I said on the one other time I've left a comment, I don't even live in Clay County.. but I enjoy this blog because of the usual give and take on local politics. As I also said once before... I find it amazing that one set of bloggers take offense at being bashed in the blogs, but apparently have no problem bashing the other side regularly. Am I the only one who sees that hypocrisy? Or is it no longer hypocritical if the other side bashes first?
Submitted by finder on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 1:40pm.
OneMann; Funny how that works. I thought I was the only one that might have gotten crossed off her Christmas Card list. Read44 might be right about the time. Mine has a time stamp of 1052 PM. She was certainly on a roll regardless.Somebody must be getting really irritated. Here is a copy of what I received and my answers. The only editing I did was to remove her email address and mine. Hers because I don't feel it would right to leave it there for all to see and mine because I have my email open on the blog. -------------- Original message -------------- Mike Heemer, So, I see you and our dark-side friends think you have what it takes to be the next Chairman. They certainly have built your ego to file against Rob Bradley. If that’s true – and you are the write-in candidate – what say you about:
Karen LakeKaren, put your claws away. Do you see my name on the list of active candidates? And by the way, my ego is just fine. I know who I am and what I am. I'm comfortable with that. I'm not a social climber and though I would prefer that people like me there really isn't much you can do about it. People will either like you or they won't.See it's kind of like you. A couple of statements made in a humorous way and suddenly you fire one across my bow telling me that I am not up to a task. You suddenly denigrate some people on the blog sight and call them my 'dark side friends'. All of this because you think I might be trying to rain on Rob Bradley's victory march?Heck if that blog can get your knickers in a knot that fast, you may want to go looking for some part work in addition to the KAA. You've got way too much time on your hands.Now to answer your first statement. Do I think I have what it takes to be the next Chairman? I guess that depends on what you are asking.If you mean do I think I could get enough votes to beat Rob Bradley if I were a candidate then the answer to that is no. I'm not sure anyone could.If you mean do I think I could do the job if I had it, then the answer to that is a resounding yes. I've had harder jobs and most of them meant the difference between whether or not people lived or died. You see, my ego is just fine.Karen, you don't know me. That I know of you have never even seen me. I know I've never seen you other than your Avatar. If I walked up to your door and offered to sell you a magazine I don't think you would know it was me. Why would you be so unkind as to question my abilities and capabilities? For me it is about respect. Respect you earn through honesty, integrity and performance.Karen, in my life I've met a few people that I wouldn't socialize with because I just didn't like them, but I would have followed them into Hell knowing that they would bring me back safely.I've also met some others that I'd socialize with and have a great time with anytime, but I wouldn't have followed them across the street because they couldn't lead their butt home without the strong possibility of being run over by a truck.The latter type are dime a dozen. Less than that during a BoGo sale.The best type I've met were the one's that met both criteria. You meet darn few of those in a lifetime. But if it is a choice between liking them or respecting them, I'll take the first type any day. One of them is worth a thousand of the other type.Karen, Rob ain't all of that and a bag of fries. He is no better for the job than any one of a hundred or more other people in this county. What he has that no one else does is a lot of influential people with a lot of money behind him. That does not equate to being the best choice. It only equates to being the only choice.I will tell you though. Overall I'm feeling good about your email. My first truly politically motivated attack. Something I never, ever in my whole life would have expected to receive. Thanks. You made my day.-- Submitted by clayvoter on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 2:23pm.
Wow. Who knew second hand emails could be so exciting? One Mann--It is a good bet that Key is "promoting" her well fiananced CRC buddy,but maybe Key is just stirring the pot to get you dander up? With the tiny campaign accounts of two of you in the Dist Three race, there is not much chance to over come a 50K warchest of the third candidate. It is like the Chairman race except there is a choice, but huge amounts of money can "buy" a boatload of advertizing to ensure name recognition. The usual suspects are orchestrating the election outcome. There aren't enough blogs or forums to get the word out and that is just pitiful. Finder...I was going to apologize for contributing to the Heemer for Chairman campaign that caused you to be on the receiving end of Key's email, but after reading your response, I am quite sure you can take care of yourself. I wish I could do graphics like Maxie, I would have just put BIFF, ZOWEE, POW, etc. like the the old Batman TV show. Mike and Mike you are really the "email crime fighting duo" You can bet your bippy I won't ever talk trash in an email to either of you!
Submitted by finder on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 2:40pm.
CV; Thanks. I guess if you can't put it on the blog, make it a 'personal' comunication. That certainly isn't the worse thing that's ever been said to me. Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov. Submitted by read44 on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 2:49pm.
I am a little confused. I did not say "more interesting" at all in my response to Mike Mann. I am not bashing Key2Life but I will without apology, say that I don't understand her. That is not required here though. I try, I just don't. Submitted by ClayCountyCurmudgeon on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 3:52pm.
I want a Mike and Mike sign in my front yard! Dang - against convenenat restrictions. Oh well, I'll just paint my roof like a large M&M. You guys are great. Finder - your reply is priceless and the best reply I've seen in a very long time. Mann - your words are perfect for the 'everyman.' What a team! Keep it up, I enjoy it more than the ping pong matches of national politics. My ideal BCC would consist of only guys named Mike! Seriously, you can learn alot by observing can't you?
Submitted by OneMann on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 4:25pm.
Read, I certainly don't have to personally like her personal political tactics to do my job. If Karen Lake or anyone else approached me as a County Commissioner and needed help with an issue on which I agreed help was warranted, I would take the action appropriate for a County Commissioner to take. Heck, I could actually hate someone's guts, but if they're right, they're right. It's not the individual people or their politics that should determine a County Commissioner's actions. It's the merits of the individual issue. ClayVoter, I really - really - don't have to become angry before I write about the dishonesty and hypocrisy, and the obvious attempts to confuse issues of local politics that virtually guarantee an inefficient government. This is what I've been doing for years, and never felt the need to insult readers' intellgience by being anything less than open, and blunt when, like today, I felt it appropriate. I gotta admit, upon reading another of Karen's deliberate misinterpetations of something I've written (I still haven't figured out how that quote of mine, or anything else I've ever said or written, could be used to justify thinking I'm against salaries for elected officials who were doing the job they were hired to do), I have occasionally accompanied a roll of my eyes with "This again?" flashing through my brain. But generally, and last night's e-mail was an example, I welcome the chance to honestly discuss real issues like fair compensation for elected officials. If folks in District 3 want to hire me as County Commissioner, they should know how I feel, not have to depend on some accuracy-be-damned, twisted, politically-translated rumor about how I feel. Michael S. Mann michaelsmann@comcast.net
Submitted by Marsha on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 4:38pm.
Mike Mann and Mike Heemer didn't call the voters "stupid", Karen Lake did. Mike Mann and Mike Heemer also have nothing to do with CPVRs petitions DESIGNED to cripple the election because they're not willing to campaign to the best of their ability and let the voters decide, and then live with the decision they make, they want to orchestrate and manipulate. Mike Mann and Mike Heemer are not party to the CRC that created the position for their boy and will verbally attack anyone that is opposed no matter their reason for such. The woman has caused more hate and discontent in these blogs then all others combined except for the CCAC fiasco. Neither one asked for such blistering, bitter and obtuse emails, they just made them public and answered them. I see no bashing at all. Perhaps bashing needs to be defined and that might solve some of the problems. Also keep in mind that old saying "don't start any **** and there won't be any ****. People who have the same goals are going to agree and get along for the most part, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. People who have share a basic idea of acceptable behavior will not get along with the ones who believe the end justifies the means. People need to start paying attention to the people who are behind the candidates, how they act and what they do. It is obviously condoned by those candidates or they would be issuing refunds for their campaign contributions or distancing themselves from them. I support Mike Mann in his run for office both financially and with my time both in public and in this forum. At no time have I ever, or will I ever talk trash to or about Travis Cummings and his other opponents in the race. He will either win by hard work and merit or he won't but we will all at least walk away knowing we campaigned with a little honor and dignity. Karen Lake has consistently attacked Mike Mann in these blogs trying to destroy his credibility yet little is said about that, and each time he has never lowered himself to her level but responded to the issues only. She is a supporter of Travis Cummings, all you have to do is look at the financial reports and that is the reason for the venom pure and simple. This sort of behavior can only be admired by those of like minds. http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for Choice in Nov 7 Commissioners or 5 Submitted by bigmig9999 on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 5:10pm.
My bad. I inadvertently replaced read44's "improved" with "interesting" But I stand by my point... I find the blogs and the threads much improved AND more interesting with diversity of opinion. My only other point, from the outside of your county looking in to these posts, is that I think its hypocritical to attack Karen when the other side appear just as attack oriented as her. As I originally posted to shuqualuk quite awhile ago... I don't quite understand why everybody on this topic is so thin skinned. I haven't read a single thing, until today maybe, that was all that offensive in the real world of local politics. I think todays orignal post was just plain rude and over the top. The only thing I read in the private email to Mike Mann that might be deemed offensive is the use of the word "need" in reference to his pursuit of the seat. Other than that they seemed like fair enough questions. I will say though that I think its kind of tacky to publicly publish emails that were personally sent to individuals. But maybe thats just me. I don't comment often, but I follow these topics because they are of interest to me and where I live.. where the issue of the makeup of the BCC is discussed on occasion. So I hope y'all get back to the give and take of hearing both sides of the issue without taking things so danged personally.
Submitted by finder on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 6:10pm.
Unless you have some personal stake in this or other 'local' political issues I can't for the life of me figure out why you would even post here at all. Unless you live here and it would affect you personally, I'd say you don't have a dog in this fight. You certainly wouldn't have a vote in this or any election here in little ole Clay County. Might I suggest you get a life? It has to be REALLY boring where you're at if this is all you have to do. Trust me, Karen can take care of herself. But every once in a while she likes to try to slip one in your back. These two emails are indicative of the fuzzy logic the CRC/CPVR crew uses to obfuscate the real issues. It's kind of like a magic show. If you can distract the viewer with your left hand they won't be paying attention to what the right hand is doing. My only other point, from the outside of your county looking in to these posts, is that I think its hypocritical to attack Karen when the other side appear just as attack oriented as her. I thought I was pretty darn tactful with my answer to her after she pretty much said I was too incompetent to do a particular job. I'm usually a lot more direct than that. I will say though that I think its kind of tacky to publicly publish emails that were personally sent to individuals. But maybe thats just me. Before you make rash judgments like that you might want to think a little longer. Obviously there is more going on here than meets the eye. Think about this statement I made to Karen. My first truly politically motivated attack. Something I never, ever in my whole life would have expected to receive. That whole email was sent to me for one reason only. She thought that I was running against her candidate. If she thought that, and really wanted to know my thoughts about some issues here in CC, she wouldn't have thrown in crap like: Avatars on MCS? Socials on MCS? Hmmm! Someone recently mentioned that she looked 20 years older than her Avatar picture. Ouch! We had an MCS blogger social that apparently she thought she wouldn't be welcome at. You see, unless you read them all and keep up with all the subtleties and innuendos you really shouldn't have a lot to say. It's kind of like stepping into the middle of a family squabble. You've nothing to win and everything to lose. Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov. Submitted by clayvoter on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 6:34pm.
Momma always said don't put anything in writing you don't want the world to see. I believe that also applies to an email. Karen is a big girl who can take care of herself. I do think sometimes you guys "pile on". However, I paraphrase Marsha (she said it so well) but "if you dish it out stand by to take it." Finder, you are on target, I am an only an occaisional reader/blogger and It is hard for me to pick up the nuances. I also can't figure why you would be interested in little ol' clay county politics if you weren't a resident/taxpayer here. I would venture a guess that all localities have the same political tom foolery that we have here. I'd think that following your OWN local yahoo's would be more imoprtant if they are impacting your tax dollars and quality of life. I am watching MY local elections very closely, they impact "me and mine" directly. The only time I pay attention to another area's local politics is if there is foot tapping or the world's oldest profession--the more tawdry the better. I am now going to take my shallow minded self out of the gutter and to the backyard for dinner alfresco. Submitted by clayvoter on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 6:36pm.
I love it Maxie! especially the flip flops! I am laughing my way to my dinner. Submitted by Shuqualak on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 8:16pm.
Two succinct points: 1. Ditto on your observations! - AND- 2. Great new photo!
Submitted by Angela on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 9:48pm.
If you only visit the blogs then you evidently have missed the good ones posted by Key2life. I can speak from personal experiences so I will just name a few of those. I would suggest you search in the blog box provided above for "Educating Kameron in Clay County". Maybe you could search for "Angela where is your avatar" or search "MCS got it right". Those are just a few of the personal attacks that I've been subjected to by Key. I disagree that people on here always agree. It's not if you agree or disagree, but the way you disagree. If it has to be a personal attack then don't post on the blogs. I told Mike Heemer if he got on the ballot I would vote for him. I wouldn't vote for him as a protest vote but because I think he would make a good candidate and chairman for the position. I have read Mike's blogs for a while and his opinions on many subjects. We could certainly use some people on the board who understand ethics, integrity, and a common sense approach to government. I support Mike Mann because I feel he has the integrity and common sense approach to government that is badly needed in Clay County too. It's time to start looking after the many taxpayers, instead of a few big money contributors. I've been reading his blogs and opinions long before he announced that he would run for the District 3 position. Mr. Bradley isn't the only person in Clay County that can qualify for Chairman. He just happens to be the only one who has. Personally the way this whole matter has been handled disturbs me greatly. If someone does not challenge him. Then he has obtained a Commissioner's seat, Vice Chairman of the Board, and then Chairman without anyone voting for him. What would make Clay County different than Iraq prior to the US going to war? I'm not in to selected leaders. As far as qualifications maybe Mr. Bradley should explain the Gibbs and Register snafu that could have set the county up for litigation. That he had to bring it back up for reconsideration after the break and all interested parties had left. Then we had to spend time on the board floor with a hearing due to his decision and a challenge. After all, Mr. Bradley is an attorney familiar with government laws. Since he is unopposed I guess there will be no debate. I agree with Commissioner Conkey it didn't leave me with a good feeling either. I'm glad to see people on the blogs discussing the issues that are important to all the people in the County. Personal attacks, name calling, and offensive language should not be allowed or accepted on the blogs.
Submitted by Baxley on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 10:01pm.
Angela - Here, here!!! Well said re personal attacks, name calling and offensive language. Thankfully, it seems to be on the wane, but it definitely detracts from the blogger's credibility (with me). Submitted by Foxx on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 11:14pm.
I guess it's the price i pay. When you type in Foxx in the search at the top of the page to look at old comments or research, you'll find Foxx? Not so sly in regards to my glorious entrance into the bloghood. It was a personal agenda and a personal attack, so who am i to judge Karen Lake aka Keys2Life aka Linda 5, other than calling her stupid. Hey, me too, join the club. Hopefully, i'm building my credit Mr. Garrison. In support of Mike Mann, he is the only candidate in my district i have heard from, the only one who has given me constructive critisism, well deserved at that. From what i can tell he is the only one who blogs on the largest blog in regards to County politics in the county and this is notable. Honest and genuine, not qualities of elected officials we actually hear about. My vote still remains spent. Mike, the other mike, i won't write your name in. And i won't vote for Mr. Bradley not b/c i don't like him or know him to be mischievious, but b/c i don't think his job is necessary, therefore i'll hopefully vote to disband the position. I really don't think the blogs have become more boring or less informative with quality discussion. It's all about perspective and interest. Either you're interested in what is going on around you or you're ignorant to such. Politics is boring, but i love it, i love to discuss such, i know every President all 43 and their VPs, none of my friends care about that, none of my friends care that G. Hobart was the VP for Mckinny boy until he died in office in 1899, by the way that was the only Presidency where the first VP and the President died in office together, Hobart in 1899 and Mckinnley in 1901 in his second term with T. Roosevelt as VP at the time who replaced the deceased Hobart. But now i'm really rambling, i should probably just stop typing. Submitted by Sunflower on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 11:20pm.
Well, I was wondering why we’d not been hearing from our Keystone blogger. Seems she’s also been ‘lurking’ as I stated to someone that I often do. I wonder why she felt she had to send emails to you guys – doesn’t sound like our outspoken supporter of the “boys” - she usually speaks very freely on the blog and often acerbically, especially late at night. Anyway – my point of this is not to bash anyone, but to give a virtual ‘pat on the back’ to both Mikes. Mike Mann for standing up for what he believes and throwing his hat in the ring for Commissioner, District 3 and Mike Heemer for picking up the ball and running with it about the write-in campaign. I was only half kidding when I mentioned it and then others came in with their sometime humorous comments but also with many good ideas. The other half of my thought was wishful thinking for a solution to the Chair position filled by a man who never received a vote from anyone and would serve as Chairman for four years - a position he was largely responsible for creating. Is there such a thing as a recall for the BCC? Call me crazy (many have), but I think we can all make a difference and it's because we've had the opportunity to communicate and learn. It will take awhile cuz we're new at this, and the old guard has a very long head start. I have always felt that awareness/knowledge of a situation - the who, what, why, etc. is power. OneMann, Finder, Marsha, Angela, CV and all the rest of the dark siders, I care not what anyone else says about you, I’m proud to know ye.
Petition for removal of two commissioners. http://24.23.126.8/
Submitted by TruthHurts on Tue, 05/06/2008 - 11:42pm.
I dont' really have anything to add. I just wanted to say hi.
TRUTHHURTS Submitted by Angela on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 12:10am.
I think emails sent to a blogger to tell them they should forfeit their salary because they support an open discussion about salaries and benefits on the blogs. Or an email to tell a blogger they are incompetent for a position is beyond comprehension. I appreciate the information from both Mike's because I don't have an open email on the blogs. Not because I wouldn't want to talk to fellow bloggers. I wouldn't want to be subjected to the harassment. It does reinforce my reasons for blocking my email address. Thanks for sharing the information. Baxley we have had many conversations on the blogs and even if we didn't agree on some things you have always been a gentleman. Last time I told you that it got you attacked too. Sunflower I feel like you do I'm proud to know and blog with the MCS bloggers. You're an awesome group of guys. Knowledge is power Submitted by bigmig9999 on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 8:45am.
MikeH As I explained, I have an interest in the issues being discussed. That is why I read here, and why I have posted on a couple of occasions. I'm pretty sure I didn't read anything in the terms and conditions saying I had to live in Clay County, or even nearby necessarily, to post or comment. I still have a thread of free speech left I believe. I don't have to have a dog in the fight to have an opinion. Yes, I can see from her comments that Karen can take care of herself. This isn't about karen, or you for that matter. Its mainly about the hypocrisy of complaining about "attacks" and "offensive remarks" and then doing the exact same things yourselves. Why in the world would you get so upset at my personal opinions to the point that you accuse me of having no life or that it must be boring where I live? Couldn't you have made your point without these unnecessary forays into analyzing my life situation? I have quite a nice life actually. My life is broad and curious enough that I often look outside my own little world to learn about things like 5 + 2 commission districts. Which is exactly why I enjoyed reading both sides of the issues, which actually happened in the past before everybody got so thin skinned. Angela I have read all the way back and have read the posts you refer to. I am not going to make any judgements based on one post and its comments. I actually read many of the other posts on myclaysun also. I enjoy solovoce very much, and at one point I enjoyed alot of what I gather is the CTLAC "faction" before it all degenerated into what this original post started. I applaud you for making your point without animosity. I still maintain that I have only rarely read something by any of y'all that I would deem "offensive" or "attacking" beyond whats normal in the give and take of local politics. Which is why I can't understand why you don't just let it roll off your collective backs and get back to the issue. I've always found, so far, that the best way to handle an offensive remark is to ignore it. Same with verbal "attacks".. ignore it and get back to the point. IMHO lastly, I still maintain that its tacky (not illegal, unethical or immoral)... but tacky, to take personal emails public. I don't think I'm the only one that thinks that way either.
Submitted by finder on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 8:47am.
bigmig9999; Tacky is one of the nicer things I've ever been accused of being. I think a great country singer once made the comment: 'It takes a lot of money to look this tacky'. Dolly Parton. Thanks for the input. I'll take it under advisement. Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov. Submitted by Angela on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 10:39am.
I am not a member of the CTLAC "faction" to my knowledge. I am a county resident, taxpayer and citizen. I did not support the additional positions when the CRC promoted the idea. I've never supported the idea of the best way to fix bad government in Clay County would be by adding more government. If the people who were elected were doing their job we wouldn't need more government. I firmly believe less government is best under any circumstances. I do appreciate the CTLAC for presenting ideas to the taxpayers of less government, more responsible government, and to lower the salaries of these positions. It is a daunting task to gather over 5000 signatures for any group. I appreciate the work they did on term limits as well. They have worked hard to give the voters a choice in Clay County. I have nothing other than respect for their hard work. If that's what being the CTLAC "faction" means then count me in.
Submitted by TruthHurts on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 11:20am.
bigmig Yes I have noticed a definate hypocrisy in the name calling arena, your not alone and it's not your imagination. Unfortunately no one will admit it. I have posted on this topic several times and all it does is create more sarcasim, ridicule, and name calling. The tactic of sarcasim, ridicule, and name calling is only torerated from a select few, and the rest are put down when they return the favor. I am by no means going to point anyone out, I have no desire to get into an arguement with anyone. It's simply my observation and expereince that brings me to this conclusion of hypocrisy as well. I hope I did not offend anyone for it is not my intention, just my opinion. TRUTHHURTS
Submitted by Marsha on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 11:56am.
Determining just who is and who isn't a hypocrite is a bit like a dog chasing it's own tail. Hypocrisy like so many other things is a subjective opinion based upon each individuals own criteria and personality. Big you called a group of people hypocrites because they answered an attack with one of their own so does that not also make you part of that circle? You and others illuded to a mindset that because there are a group of like minded people that we "gang up" on others who disagree. Is only one of us allowed to speak to the issues or situation? Should our free speech be silenced simply because there is someone else who shares our feelings have already spoken? How do we go about deciding who gets to speak and who doesn't? Is it our fault that the opposition is not in here in numbers to defend what they're doing? I will admit that in politics I do not "turn the other cheek", if we do that then there is little chance to gain any momentum as private citizens. Turning the other cheek does not belong in politics. The pattern I see for myself personally is that when I have been personally attacked, very little is said if anything at all. However the minute I stand up to the attack and to some degree fight fire with fire then I hear about the hypocrisy. I've never written over a dozen blogs in one day to push discussion of current issues out of sight because I don't want people to know the truth as others see it. I've never blogged under any other name but this one. To partially coin of phrase from a movie.....I've never drawn first blood. I try very hard to address the behavior and not the person, on occassion I fail but I still pursue the objective. When my credibility or integrity is challenged I am not going to ignore that, and I don't believe anyone has the right to ask me to, especially when it is someone that knows nothing of me other then what I say here in these blogs. If it is best to ignore all that then why did you come into the blogs just to be critical, why didn't YOU just ignore it? I've been actively participating in these blogs longer then anyone according to Jonathan. I read them nearly every single day and comment almost as much. I have over a years worth of constant interaction with certain people. My opinions on their political integrity don't come from one or even just a few situations, but over a years worth. Citizens are becoming more and more angry and fed up with how the county appears to being sold out to lobbyists and big business. I would rather have people honestly debating me over the issues then to just not care. I do however have little tolerance for what I see as covert and misleading behavior to achieve a result. It would not matter whether it was politics, or business. A classic example of that is the CPVRs attempt to once again discredit the CTLAC by telling people "ohhhhh those people are wasting your tax dollars with your petitions, they're not paying for them to be certified they have filed for a waiver" So what? The CTLAC are taxpayers themselves, the people signing those petitions are taxpayers. If the waiver exists why shouldn't they utilize it? On one hand they criticize for the $500 it costs to certify 5000 petitions and then turn around in the same breath and tell you that the salary and benefits for 2 more Commissioners isn't a big deal. A $500 complaint/accusation vs an amount of more then $100k in just one year that is only "pennies a day per registered voter". To me there is hypocrisy in that presentation. To my way of thinking, my response to an attack is a defense, not an attack. There is a big difference between someone who gets riled and says something they might not have said if it were not for that emotion, and someone who repeatedly and consistently launches personal attacks as a way of trying to control what people think and distract from the merits of the issue. If you truly believe in what you're doing and that it's the right thing to do you debate the issue. If you're just trying to get your way by any means possible then lies, partial truths, misrepresentation and personal attacks are your only tools. http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice in Nov 7 Commissioners or 5.
Submitted by finder on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 12:26pm.
bigmig; Sorry to come back so late with a follow-up comment. My lovely bride had me out searching for bargains. You have to search for bargains in today's economy. Anyway, I had to do some scrolling through the hard drive of my sometimes feeble brain to draw a hit on the old mental database. You may want to rethink your defense of Karen with regard to personal emails being shared. I'll take your comments on mine but you need to go back a while and read one of Karen's scathing emails to OneMann. In one of her run on rants she chastised Mike unmercifully for not sharing his personal emails. Her premise was that as he was a candidate that he should share everything with the general public because they had a right to know. So in other words if he doesn't follow her instructions and share he is 'hiding' something. But if he does share then he is being tacky and shouldn't be doing that. You see, that is typical Karen and her supporters. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Now for me, I've still got your input under advisement but it isn't looking as good as it used to. Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov.
Submitted by Marsha on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 12:27pm.
Thanks for the compliment on my new picture that is only DAYS old. Over the course of the last year my old photo was attacked over half a dozen times and I believe I'm the only one in that category, although some have been called into question because they don't have one. It will be interesting to see if this one gets attacked as well. It's always amazing to me how juvenile adults can still be at times. If attacking the image is the best you got then you're lacking anything credible otherwise. http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for Choice in Nov 7 Commissioners or 5 Submitted by Angela on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 1:11pm.
I remember statements over private emails not being shared. Then the reverse tacky if they do. I think the original point of the blog and the salary question is a valid point. It was prompted by an email in reference to statements made on the blogs by Mike Mann. That got answered in a public forum. I don't see those questions he answered in the email as private. I don't see anything tacky about that discussion. I think Mike Mann's explanation concerning his stance on the salary questions and his support of discussion of lower salaries got lost in the tacky email thought. However, when he is elected as the District 3 Commissioner he will be faced with the same decision public emails v private emails. In this case I think he made the wise choice by answering a question in the public by an email that didn't seem to me to be very private to me. I wouldn't call that tacky but prudent.
Submitted by TruthHurts on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 1:13pm.
I agree I think he made the right choice to lets folks know of the E-Mail. I also must agree that Key Probably brought much of this on herself.
TRUTHHURTS Submitted by bigmig9999 on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 2:37pm.
Marsha, Interesting point. If I point out what I feel is somebodies hypocrisy is that an attack in and of itself? Perhaps you are correct it all involves how you look at it. I felt more like it was an observation of a behavior, not an attack on somebodies character. I believe we all act hypocritally, probably quite often, I usually appreciate it when it is pointed out to me because it makes me look twice at myself and adjust accordingly. I thought the closest I came to "attacking" was when I judged the original post as "rude" Is that an attack or an observation? Probably to Mike M it was an offensive remark. From my end it was simply another observation. I think he could have made the same points without publicizing the email and without the attitude. I completely agree with you about not turning the other cheek. I've mentioned several times that I've been surprised by peoples reactions to the comments on these issues. While I personally haven't found too much that I would call offensive, or over the top, I do believe in most cases the same points could have been made with out the innuendos and occasional outright name calling, or backhanded name calling. Finder, First, I am not defending Karen or anybody else. This all started with my disagreement with read44 when he noted that he thought the blogs had improved without Karen's contributions. To me, they have not improved, they have lacked the entire other side of the issues except in RLyons posts. I personally thrive on hearing both sides of an argument. My other comment has simply been an observation that hypocrisy exists about "proper" blog behavior. I will however stick to my guns about publicly divulging personal emails. If the word "tacky" bothers people, feel free to use a suitable synonym. I just don't think its fair. Why not just ask permission first? Certainly this is not true of government officials who know good and well that everything they do with their work emails is in the sunshine. But if I email you, and don't copy the entire MCS community, I think its fair of me to assume that our communication will be private. Certainly I know that in this electronic age, anything can happen. But I wouldn't expect you to divulge the email. At any rate, I never would. I do note a slight difference in the scenario in your lastest post, In one case Karen asked that something be made public, she didn't actually make it public. I assume you believe that she would have if she could have? Besides, that sounds like it was just political gamesmanship. If I were Mike M in that position, I would have said I'll ask the author of the email if they are ok with sharing it, and if they weren't I'd say sorry, its a personal email and none of your business, candidate or not. Unless there are actually laws about candidates personal emails? In todays case it WAS made public, regardless of the authors consent. To be fair, I am only assuming she wasn't asked about making them public.. so correct me if I'm wrong on that score. So I'm comfortable sticking to my guns regardless of where it stands under your advisement :) We are still entitled to our own opinions, i think... But I won't be emailing you privately! :)
Submitted by finder on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 2:50pm.
bibmig; You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion. And are welcome to express it any time you would like on any subject you care to pick. Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov. Submitted by Foxx on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 3:51pm.
Gottta be honest. Some of us are getting quite crazy with this definition of what an attack is and what is hypocrisy. Why must we define everything, can't we jst talk to eachother regardless of whether or not we have a hootie doo of over a huge year of exp. on the blogs. An attack is bad if it's personal and unecessary, is it really that hard to understand, i just feel like we're talking about nothing when we make up 10 threads about the definition of an attack. Submitted by read44 on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 4:47pm.
I understand what you are saying. When I said I had been thinking that the blogs have improved lately without contributions from Key2Life, I was thinking more along the lines that there had been less meanness lately on the blogs; as in the blog titled What is Rhetoric? I didn’t mean that things were now only being discussed that everyone agreed upon. When I made the caldron comment, a visual really did pop into my head while reading the email to Mike Mann from Karen Lake and I meant I could see a spell being cast to lure Mike Mann into saying something that might be used against him or implying that he had already said something in error. I was giving you a visual, like a comment balloon in a cartoon. When you say peanut butter, jelly pops into my head. When I read bigmig9999, big-rig pops into my head, along with a visual of a semi-truck. The numbers 9999 don’t bring anything to mind. I admit I probably should have left the caldron comment out. I also see where you are coming from in your dislike of posting the personal email from Karen Lake to Mike Mann. Maybe Mike Mann can rethink that decision as Finder has considered doing, for future reference. No one is perfect. I can see that Karen had given Mike Mann a certain amount of trust when she emailed him privately instead of speaking to him on MCS. We are all making our comments and drawing our own conclusions because it has been put before us here. Submitted by Sunflower on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 6:08pm.
I am still wondering why Karen chose to write emails to OneMann and Finder rather than posting on the blog. She has never hesitated to express her opinions in the past, in fact there are 9 pages of her opinons - I did a curious search. With a record of 9 pages of writings by a person (Solo - I think she ties you according to Jonathan), it seems strange that now, she chooses to send emails. I have noticed her absence for awhile, and thought perhaps she was having computer problems. Seems not. I sense something is strange in the land of blog. Any guesses? I also feel since the topic of her emails were a result of what she was reading on the blogs, why not put her statements/concerns out there and respond? Perhaps others who had the same questions (??) would benefit by the responses from Mike Mann and Mike Heemer. And folks - this wasn't just anyone sending those emails. If you'd been reading the MCS blog for the past 15 months, you would know there's something blowin' in the wind here. Just my opinion as I am not a trained reporter. Petition for removal of two commissioners. http://24.23.126.8/ Submitted by Cookie on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 6:54pm.
I to believe that if you send an e-mail to someone and ask that the e-mail not be posted to a blog, then that trust should not be broken. I don't believe that Karen Lake asked that the contents not be posted or did I miss something? I have been around Clay County politics for almost 30 years and have participated in many campaigns and I know a politically motivated person when I hear one and Karen Lake smells of it. I'm glad Mr. Mike is reconsidering his position on the e-mails. I am of the opinion that less government is better government. I am still wondering why we need 2 more commissioners?
Submitted by finder on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 7:32pm.
Cookie; I was hoping this epoch was going to go to bed but I guess not. I can only assume that you meant me (finder) when you said you were glad that Mr. Mike is reconsidering his position on the emails so I'll answer this and then again hope that it goes to bed. I had no qualms about putting this one out there. I felt that it needed to see the light of day and the scrutiny of the community. If it offended some sensibilities that I would post that type of email I can't help that. If anyone wants to fire one across my bow, I don't have a real problem with that. I can take most of what anyone can dish out. Just do it up front so that all can see both sides of the confrontation. Then they can collectively judge what is going on and chastise one or the other of us. I too think we don't need 2 more members on the board. I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea how all this stuff works legally, but I hope that we can do away with them before one penny of salary is paid. If not, I hope that we can at least get that salary down to $37K. I am glad you posted again though. I've been a little confused about something. I'm new here and I don't know the area that well so that may explain the confusion. In one of your blogs you said that you lived in the Ravines and then not long ago you said you lived in an historic house in Middleburg and your second terrace was 800 feet from Black Creek. I didn't know there were historic houses in the Ravines. Am I confusing the Ravines Club and Lodge PUD with a larger general area known as the Ravines? Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov. Submitted by Cookie on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 7:51pm.
I wasn't condemning you for the e-mail. Heck I'm a fan! I live in the Mary Chalker house across the creek from the Ravines Golf course. The home is well known by most people who take sunday drives around the historical area of Middleburg. Been there a long time. If your ever out, please stop bye I'd be happy to give you a tour.
Submitted by finder on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 8:21pm.
Cookie; Thanks. Amazing what you can learn by asking questions. Never been out that way. It sounds like a nice area to drive through. I quess I might have been a little too obtuse with the 'I'll take it under advisement'. In the Navy that's kind of like telling your kids 'I'll think about it' when you know full well that is the last thing your going to do. Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov. Submitted by Angela on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 9:17pm.
MCS is an open forum for discussions. If you don't hear the other side it's not the fault of those of us who do not support the 5+2. We have had no problems articulating our thoughts on the more government amendment. We have made clear we support less government and will be voting to remove those positions. All are free to blog and can come on here to support the 5+2 if they choose to give the other side of the debate. If that hasn't happened other than Key and Lyons then maybe the majority don't think it is such a good idea. Of the three amendments presented by the CRC 2 (ethics and non-interference) passed overwhelmingly. I felt the close vote on the 5+2 had many citizens sitting on the fence with that amendment. Now that time has passed and voters see how the county should be ran may have a different feeling about adding additional government. That may be the reason you do not have a group of bloggers defending the additional government. As far as the email I don't see that as a private conversation. I have alot of private conversations in emails. What I see is an email with a question to a candidate and their position on the matter concerning salaries. In order to prevent any misunderstanding he answered the question as a candidate in a public forum. Submitted by bigmig9999 on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 11:12am.
Like Finder, I thought this one was done...but I'll be brief. rerlatively. I think its unfair to presume that because there are not more people posting in favor of the 5+2 that that means the majority must not be in favor of it. Unless we are assuming that the MCS blogging community represents a fair sampling of the entire county. I'd be surprised if that was the case. but I'm darn glad the conversation is back to that, which was my original area of interest! Maybe a new, civil, debate thread about that? Have heard nothing to change my mind about personal emails. I think an email from one person to another person should be presumed to be private unless both parties agree to take it public. Short of an admission of a criminal offense or something like that. There could be any number of reasons why Karen has gone private instead of blog on these issues. Could be pure coincidence and not some sneaky plot. Finder, I know you are tired of this thread, but IF you choose.. just enlighten me as to why you thought her email to you needed to be out there? Was it because she referred to her opposition as the "dark side"? who cares..just words. Was it the fact the she inferred that you were not up to the "task" who cares.. just one persons opinion. Was it lumping in "avatars" and "socials" into the list? who cares. I don't see how any of the things I've mentioned so far further any legitimate political issue. I don't understand why her email needed the "scrutiny"? I hate that this sounds like I am coming to a particular persons defense, my issues with this thread are strictly the privacy of emails and the hypocrisy of commenters.
Submitted by lilyslore on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 11:17am.
I feel very odd on this one. Of all people to be defending Karen Lake, I wouldn't have thought it would be me. I have stated previously, that while I rarely agree with her opinions, I certainly respect her dedication to those opinions and I DO so love a great debate. I only wish there were more debating going on. Having read the e-mail posted by Finder, all I can think is we are getting a bit thin skinned here. I don't know that Karen was actually trying to be mean so much as she rarely shows a flair for humor. I found her list of questions for Finder to be, at best, tongue in cheek. As someone who speaks like that most of the time, to a point where I give the impression of having a speech impediment, I would afford Karen the benefit of the doubt on this one. As to joining the "Dark Side" I didn't invite anyone to that party. :>) At any rate, Mike Heemer whom I enjoy vastly (like Rich K, Marsha, and Baxley) will get my write in vote versus Rob Bradley simply because I think we should have a choice. Whether it's Ben Chucklebutt or Mike Heemer. Both would be an improvement over the recalcitrant Rob Bradley. Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman Submitted by Angela on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 12:04pm.
I thought the main issue in the thread was the Salary Question. Which I haven't heard any of the other candidates talk about in support of lower salaries except Mike Mann. As far as the email. I guess having been apart of the blogs for over a year. I guess my knowledge of Karen's past on the blogs seem like a simple question to a candidate that was answered in a public forum. No big deal to me. Karen has emailed bloggers and then came on the blogs and discussed that email. I believe Marsha was the one she emailed. Karen has chastised Mike Mann before for not answering questions and sharing emails on the blogs. So when this subject came up and he answered it in a public forum I didn't see anything that would cause me concerns since it does involved Karen. I can see why he didn't feel it was personal question since she has directly chastised him about sharing on the blogs. As far as debating the other side I haven't seen where anyone was prevented from offering the other side. I just haven't seen them come on here and explain why we need that additional baggage in Clay County. I, too, would love to hear a rational explanation for those positions. I didn't support additional government then and I can't support additional government this time either. I would love to hear an explanation on why Clay County needs a selected leader instead of an elected leader. People are talking about ...Here are the recent blog postings with the most comments. |
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Mike Mann,
I don’t know either you or Karen Lake except from the impressions you leave here on this blog by what you say.
By any chance, was this email from Karen Lake written to you in the later hours of the evening?
I had just been thinking yesterday how improved the blogs have been lately without contributions from Key2Life, but that was just my personal observation.
Another question, are you sure that the email didn’t begin with -
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble?
No implication here, it just popped into my head.
She surely doesn’t want you elected or must feel like once you get there she won’t need your help in any way.