Cults and how to identify them

If true< BRAVO!!!! Times Union

TRUTHHURTS

Please go to

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

and sign the petition for the Fair Tax Bill. Tell Congress to pass this Bill.

Cults will not tolerate dissent of any kind. The best thing to do is to defeat them completely.  Only "they" have the answers. Only "they" can make the decisions because "they" know so much better than anyone else.  It's this smugness on the part of the Fair Tax Liars that will ultimately bury them. What a bunch of miserable autocrat wannabes these people are.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

LOL your a trip!

Stay off the drugs and books of fiction sweet cheeks, maybe get a stong cup of coffee. Your demented.

Sewer rats will be sewer rats be carful folks they carry diseases.

TRUTHHURTS

Please go to

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

and sign the petition for the Fair Tax Bill. Tell Congress to pass this Bill.

Lily,

Interesting topic.  I consulted the great book & while there are some differences between the two, there seems to be more in the way of similarities.  I think you're right.  The two main differences are the extremism & the attempt to isolate the individual.  But even these two examples are shared by the big three religions.  It's only a matter of degree.

It would seem that you still have at least one "admirer."  In a reply to Marsha a few blogs back where she said she was aggravated with this kind of blogging, I told her that the only advice I could offer was to do what I have done.  Ignore them.. Derision & substandard English seems to be the modus operendi for their communication.  Their minds are made up & trying to convince them otherwise is, indeed, a waste of time & effort & I don't know any one who needs more aggravation in their lives.

It will be interesting to see where this subject goes.  Personally, I can't see how one can fight the cults, let alone rid our society of such types.  They prey upon the weak, non thinking & often abused people of society & that vulnerability is unfortunately wide spread.  Have a great day.  I've got a pool to clean & lick my wounds from the CUBS loss last night.  Keep a happy thought.  JATFUR.

RichK

It is very telling when someone who has a different point of view is attacked regardless of the subject matter.  It doesn't make me angry when someone has a different opinion then I do....I truly do want people to decide for themselves, not just go along with the crowd. 

Like Rich said, for as long as there are people who are vulnerable to manipulation these things will continue.

In doing some research on the outerbeltway yesterday I came across several articles the Times Union has printed.  They are really into promoting this beltway.  I even found an article from 2006 where the bulk of the article was about the beltway and in the last two sentences talked about how Clay County "needs a strong leadership role" in order to evolve into the future.  In other words "they need a BCC Chairman who will facilitate"

Like I've said before.......everything going on is tied to that beltway. 

Paranoid, 1. Characterized by or resembling paranoia  2. Characterized by suspiciousness, persecutory trends or megalomania  3. Extremely fearful  4. Lily

Once again because someone or a group has other views that the Almighty Lily does not agree with they are completely wrong, and now are called a cult, and as usual her  few supporters have backed her up. I always believed a cult had one leader that was going to take the group to salvation, and I’m not sure who that might be in the FairTax movement. We must not forget that this is a bill (HR25) that is in Congress. Also no one has asked me to give up all my worldly goods and devote my life to the FairTax movement. I will say that on April 15th every year it seems our government ask me to do it for the USA, and I get a little bummed about that.

One more question. Would you call CATLAC a cult and Jane Padgett their leader? First let me say I am not calling them a cult, but the way you, Lily want to describe a cult some people might say they are. I’m sure Roy Lyons does not look at them in a favorable light.

Lily people have different views and those views can be discussed in a civil manner, for some reason you find that hard to do.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

I am going to make one last attempt to figure out why you are so angry before I just have to add you to the list of those people I just don't engage anymore.

You keep complaining about Lilys "supporters".  Can you clarify what a supporter is to you?  Is a supporter someone who merely comments on a blog they've written?  Or is it the fact that people may agree with points Lily makes here and there?  Or is it actually speaking to her that causes this anger?

Was my mind made up on the Fair Tax issue based upon a book that TH supports and Lily destroyed with her review?  Nope, not at all, and there is too much nastiness going on surrounding it I am just not on one side or the other, I disengaged.

I asked you in another blog to point out to me where I have defended Lily other then perhaps in the first few months of the blogs and you haven't shown me anything.  I've actually tried to find a blog or two in the beginning where I received a tongue lashing from Lily too because I dared to not condemn law enforcement for deciding to shoot a bear that no longer had any fear of humans.  Due to the reality that I myself do not appreciate being spoke to in that way I agree with Lily where I can, and just stay out of it when I don't agree knowing that it could initiate a confrontation that I really don't want with anyone, including you.

You're hot on Lilys tail about how she talks to people yet last week inferred I was not of sound mind by asking me if I were crazy merely because you didn't agree with the broad wondering of just what all the facts were in the Wes Whiddon tragedy.  Were you civil to me at any point in that thread or did you talk down to me the entire time?

I'm not going to come jump on you just because you jumped on her, and if you go look at the archives you will see you have jumped before and I stayed out of it.  You kind of brought me into it when you decided to not play nice last week and then again this week in another thread. 

So please tell me exactly what it is with regards to me that you are so angry about?  If I am not responding to an attack on me personally I feel its safe to say the grand majority of my entries are civil. 

If you're just mad that I talk to her, speak well of, or agree with her at times and you want me to stop then at least everyone else and myself will understand what the bur in your saddle is and can just stop engaging you.   For the record I don't approve of name calling, take no pleasure or entertainment in what either of them are doing and wish this feud between the two of them would just stop but at the moment neither appears to want to take the road less traveled and be the first to say "enough". 

I try to find common ground with all bloggers, at the least if I cannot agree I try to validate why they feel or believe what they do.  That is a key ingredient to a healthy give and take.  Rich and I are on opposite sides of the fence where religion is concerned yet out of consideration for each other I understand why he feels the way he does and he attempts to not lump "all" Christians together realizing that some are not a part of those things that enrage him.  We are tolerant of each other, and respectful and get along just fine.  

Now, are we going to find some common ground or do I just ignore you?

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha,

Does Uncle Rich have to spell everything out?  Have you not read any of my past replies concerning situations like this?  I thought you would have & known that they would be on the test.  You'll have to stay after school.  But for now, let me repeat.

In the past, Uncle Rich has been accused of saying many things by different people.  Fair enough.  But when Uncle Rich called them out to please provide the evidence, ie. when & where I said it, I was met with......silence.  This is not new.  Many people employ such tactics.  Fire a shot loaded with high grade BS & retreat back into the hole until next time.  You can either waste your time with people like this or ignore them. 

One more nugget of wisdom.  If YOU have to go back, do a bit of research to prove yourself correct, be prepared to then be attacked by the people who then claim that it must be nice to have such time to waste in doing that very research.  See how the inferior, but devious mind works? 

Now I hope that I don't have to repeat myself again.  You'll get my bill at the end of the month.  Yea verily, I say.  Go & aggravate yourself no more.  Suffer fools no longer.  Pax vobiscum.  JATFUR.

RichK

Don't be concerned by the attacks you are getting. That is exactly what they want.  I don't reply to them directly.  After all, I believe I have demonstrated quite adequately I can defend myself.  In their minds if you are not with them "yer agin 'em".  Can't converse with a thought process like that.

Just to recap, remember when I was challenged to read the book and I decided in the interests of a fair conversation that it would be a good thing for the debate, they immediately denounced my doing so claiming I was already biased and would not give it a fair shake?  How do you win an argument like that? Here's another telling thing.  For all those advertised meetings the Fair Taxers claim to put on to "educate" the public, (at the Orange Park library) not one single official of this movement ever chimed in with an actual fact or statistic to back them up or counteract anything I thought.  Not one. I know they had to be aware of my little project yet not one provided any reponse to anything I wrote. I have to assume they couldn't. And still FTD and "Truth" continued to merely write derogatory comments. I was specifically asking for a dialogue. I did it in nearly all if not all of my essays. Finally, I realized the topic just wasn't of much interest to anyone.  There is one more essay I am considering on the subject, detailing all the "problems"  (a word I use so as not to inflame my detractors further) this scheme has, both moral and legal. Foxx had written me privately asking if I were going to continue but as there was so little interest in the subject I didn't see the point. Maybe if I write out all the things I dislike, perhaps at long last the two complainers could come up with a coherent rebuttal that doesn't rely on the all encompassing statement, "read the book".  Reminds of the old Ellery Queen Novel where Ellery comes upon a previously unknown community revering their Book of MKH.  The kicker was, they didn't understand it at all but because it looked so nice it had to be worthy of reverance.

I fully expect their next soliloquy to be the Paul Reubens Gambit in debate circles, namely "I know you are but what am I?"

Finally, yes, I do tweak them from time to time over their slavish devotion to this concept just like I would the followers of Jim Jones. Blind Faith may have been a terrific rock group but it is frightening in an ideology. So I will admit to a bit of juvenility there and I am sorry their poor reading comprehension skills have them qualifying for the Conclusion Jumping Olympics in thinking you support my ideas unequivocably.  I know it ain't so, Joe, and I prefer it that way.  I am diametrically opposite of many of your ideals, Rich, some of Baxley's a little from Finder, maybe one or two of yours, Marsha, but that's what makes for stimulating conversations. And I have even come to recognize a lot of validity in the ideas expressed here that 30 years ago I might have simply rejected out of hand.  That is to the credit of all of you and teh high minded style of intellectual discourse you all display.  An old dog may be hard to teach but I consider myself open minded enough to try to learn. So long as everyone keeps to their high standards I will do my best to live up to them also.  

As to the two attackers (if indeed they actually are two) I say: "Qui non intelligit aut discat aut taceat".  That should keep them busy for a couple of weeks. :>) 

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

I will make another attempt to explain this to Ms. Lily and all the other bloggers. Because she was considerate enough to not get crazy with the name calling neither will I.

Lily

It was not your opposition to the concept of the fair tax bill in and of itself that was the basis of our little problems. It was how you presented yourself.

Rather then simply disagreeing with the concept and stating simply I do not care for the authors,  and from what I have heard I disagree with the concept. You chose to attack them and everyone that likes the idea in a demeaning nasty way. That was my first problem with you.

Two People you have spoke of in an admirable way also did not like the concept and we politely agreed to disagree.

I know that we are all different people with different ideas and that is great. Your not liking the idea is not a problem.

From the very begining you made it painfully clear your hatred for the authors of the book and the concept prior to even reading it.

It would not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the only purpose to take a look at the book from that point on was to discredit the authors and its supporters.

Who in their right mind is going to buy a book, take the time to read it, and take the time to write reports on it when they have such hatered for the authors and beleive the idea stinks right from the onset, right? Your mindset on the topic was already cast in stone. 

You demonstrated that clearly again when you reported on the book in a biased way and even continued the name calling in your reporting. Anyone could clearly see you were not being fair and the bias name calling continued. This was my second problem with you. Rather then fight and argue every single point with you about it, I just shut up.

It was and it still is my belief that you did not conduct your book report project for anything other then to discredit it. Your mind was already made up prior to your reading it and your hatred for the authors and those that liked the idea.

This beleif I hold continues to be reinforced by your continued digs and remarks you have made in several posts since, where I sat and said nothing. This was my third problem with you, where I decided to start calling names back. Yet for the life of me you still want to bring it up again and again.

It is ok that you do not like the fair tax concept no problem.

But I can asure you that the people that do like the concept are not members of a cult, are not stupid, are not trolls, are not sewer harpies, ect ect.

The authors of the book and people that like the idea are not the names you so eloquently like to call them. I hope in saying all this we can all put this item to bed.

TRUTHHURTS

Please go to

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

and sign the petition for the Fair Tax Bill. Tell Congress to pass this Bill.

Give me that ruler and pipe down, yer not big enough to make me stay after school .

You don't need to splain nuttin UR, I not only get it, I already had it. Like the blog said...there was one last attempt made to find reason before I call it a waste of time, effort and walk away. 

Debating for a purpose is exhilirating, arguing for no constructive reason is a waste of time. 

Marsha, a supporter in this case is someone who either piles on, or accuses the victim of foul play. I don’t care if you agree with her views, that has nothing to do with it. I don’t even care if she attacks me, after 23 years in the Navy I have been verbally attacked by better and stood my ground. What I do not understand is why when she is not stating a view but viciously, verbally attacking someone (not necessary me or TH) no one takes her to task? Yet when I, TH, or others appear to cross the line we are hammered. That is the point I have tried to make about Lily.

Solo you said you asked for proof. Probably about a month or so ago TH went back and did a “cut & paste” of quite a few of Lily’s  post to prove a point, naturally nothing was said by anyone. I could do the same, but 1 That is wasting my time and 2. You and Marsha are both smart enough (and Marsha is not crazy, are you happy now) you have read probably just about every one of Lily’s post. You both know exactly what I am talking about. But Solo if I misunderstood you and you were looking for proof of when you attacked someone after Lily did, and you tried to spin it as a view but it was an attack. Jump up seven blogs on this thread to your Cults v Religion and read your second paragraph. Granted not as bad as Lily’s  but still a shot.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

FTD

I have brought this subject up several times, but to no avail. The truth really does hurt for some. It hurts to the point of denial.

I don't mind stimulating debate, and give and take. I will go toe to toe with anyone as long as they keep the dialog respectful so will I. But when they start calling names, spin truth, talk down to me, and want to get down and dirty I am one tough chick and will give it right back.

I am not stupid, and I am not a sewer harpie. I was educated in good schools in Boston, and I have a degree from Boston College, I also have an IQ of 136.  But I am also a city girl and will not take anything from anyone.

I just find it ironic that the people that speak the loudest about  open minds and civil dialog get to knock others down, and when they get back up and send that gift back they are condemed.

I may be a woman, I may be small, but I always get back up.

TRUTHHURTS

Please go to

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

and sign the petition for the Fair Tax Bill. Tell Congress to pass this Bill.

FTD,

I did look back to the paragraph you mentioned.  I did indeed, mention, "derision & substandard English," along with aggravation & having ones mind made up.  Was there derision?  Yes, in my opinion, so that was not an attack.  Was there sub standard English from a person who claims to be educated, with a degree & relatively high IQ?  Once again, yes.  So where is the attack?  Where is the spin?  Those remarks were not constrained by one reply or this current thread but made by an accumulation of several replies by TH.  Perhaps I did not state my objections clearly enough & that would be my fault.  Let me do so now.

I speak only for myself but other bloggers have expressed the same feelings.  Regardless of who the person is, name calling, personal attacks or thinly veiled, crude euphemisms should not be used or tolerated in a venue such as this.  Personally, I see nothing beneficial or profitable in these. 

Even if they are tolerated, & apparently, they have been, does that justify making a point when there are so many better alternatives?  Does answering like with like do anything but lower the quality, integrity & intelligence of these blogs?  I think it is low enough now, in certain cases.   

Does answering like for like do anything to advance an idea or point of view in a positive manner?  I think not.

Does using substandard communication skills lend credibility?  On one hand, I, & any body else, can easily dismiss typos & misspellings.  On the other hand, does that preclude the use of a dictionary, the basic knowlege of English or re reading & editing a blog/reply one just wrote for the purposes of correcting any mistakes, mistakes that we all make?  These are relatively small steps & some can be dismissed when viewing the larger picture.  I am also from the North & have admitted that I never finished college.  But I do know the difference between the adjective "your," & the contraction, "you're."  Small points?  Yes.  But consider the fact that every time an opinion is offered, the person making that opinion wants due consideration & respect for that opinion.  The small points begin to chip away at consideration & respect.

Point being, there are always choices.  One can jump in the gutter to prove their own point against the point of another.  Or, one can aim at a higher standard & keep to that higher standard.  I offered one possible solution when the process begins to nose dive, especially when it appears one will not change.  Ignore them, avoid the aggravation of confrontation & move along.  I still hold by that maxim.  It might not be the best path, but it is a safe path.  JATFUR.

Rich K

Rich, I have to second everything you wrote, especially the first paragraph.  Thanks, it saves me from saying the same thing.

One of the attacks from the Fair Taxers that began this entire feud was the automatic assumption that I would present a completely biased accounting despite reading such a poorly written book.  I said at the outset that I do not respect the views of Neil Boortz because he is not a very nice man and is completely consumed with envy over the success of other radio talk show hosts.  He will never get over that but such is life. He does make a good living with his ornery attitude. More power to him but just because he has certain views and an audience (no matter the size) does not make him right.  What is intriguing though, is the fact that he claims to be a fiscal conservative yet is proposing the largest most damaging and immoral tax increase in world history. And it's all to the benefit of corporate greed. What he refuses to recognize are the Laws of Unintended Consequences. I will address that in a future blog I will have to write listing the things I dislike about this entire concept.  Mostly it involves the lack of morality. (Morality in tax law? Yes, there is room for morality but not for this crew.) 

As I mentioned before, not once did a single member of the Fair Tax movement (one of which showed for Cliff Stearns most recent visit) ever jump into the fray. I am certain they were aware of the blog.  I was even contacted privately, yet that person never once chimed into the discussion to tell me where I was wrong on any of my interpretations, Not once! I have to assume my points have validity.

So, to reiterate, at the outset I was labelled a liar before word one appeared. I was told I could not and would not be "fair" in the enterprise I initiated. Never mind that I practically begged for involvement from all the readers, even the defenders. But all I got was ripped.  Did I lambaste Mr. Boortz? Absolutely, as a public figure he puts himself out there as a target just like anybody else with an oversized ego.  He thrives on the attention.  Most public figures do until they are caught (literally in some cases) with their pants down. But for some complete stranger to attempt to label my word as no good, that I find as offensive as one can get.

Finally, the sleazy  innuendos regarding my sex life, or the lack thereof, tells me how little character this person has.  The grammatical errors alone tell me that she definitely deserves a partial refund for what had to be a rather expensive education. (136 IQ nothwithstanding.)  I count myself extremely lucky in abandoning higher education when I did. Two years has done me just fine. ;>)

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Lily,

Thanks for the entry.  Personally, I hope the vitriol will begin to taper off.  I know for a fact that since starting these blogs, I've tried to be extra watchful of myself & my language.  I don't consider that a hinderance, more like an impetus for better thinking, better writing.

I honestly don't know where all this started & to be honest, I don't care.  Placing blame has left the dock long ago to have any meaningful effect.  But since it began, I've maintained that as far as I am concerned, my main reason against all the negatives was to prevent these blogs from being discontinued.  As far as the negatives, they may change, they might not.  In the mean time, I'll stick to what I've stated & just avoid any communication exchange with some people.

As far as two years of college, that's @ what I had but it's impossible to say if that two years has been just fine since there is no basis for comparing.  Once again, thanks for the entry.  Have a great Sunday & upcoming week.  JATFUR.

Rich K