Clay County Sheriff's Race
The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. Sun Tzu I realize this is very long but I feel it is crucial for everyone that is interested in the Sheriffs race to read. It is jointly to Mike Taylor and to the good citizens of Clay County. Before I go any further let me say this, if you or anyone else can convince me why I should support you and not Sheriff Beseler I will immediately withdraw my support from him. If you or anyone else can prove anything Sheriff Beseler has done wrong and therefore damaged the integrity of his office, I will immediately withdraw my support from him and vigorously support you. I will encourage everyone I know to do the same. I will remove the Beseler signs from my yard and my vehicle and replace them with yours. I will use my Rick Beseler T shirt as a polishing rag and proudly display one of yours. That sir is a guarantee. However, do not give me OPINION or FEELINGS about something he has done wrong. Do not point out something that you or someone else does not like. Do not try to use twisted statistics, opinions, feelings rumor, hearsay or gossip. I have some statistics of my own and as you well know and you have already done, you can manipulate statistics to reflect just about any view you want to portray and we all know about opinions. Provide verifiable evidence, Mr. Taylor, of what Sheriff Beseler has done to damage the integrity of his office and you will have won another supporter. Mr. Taylor, if it were not for the Fraternal Order of Police LABOR LODGE, I do not think anyone in Clay County would even know your name. By the way, just personal perception but I do not think the labor lodge could possibly care less about Mike Taylor, who Mike Taylor is or what Mike Taylor represents. They would support Donald Duck if he were running just so they would have a PAWN to play in their chess game with Sheriff Beseler. Oh, and the fact that you are endorsed by the unions in Clay County is not really anything to brag about. Of course, the FOP is endorsing you, they are upset because Sheriff Beseler will not kowtow to their every whim and anyone with any understanding of how unions operate should know if one endorses a candidate, the others will follow suite. Clay County has never been very big on unions Mr. Taylor and I doubt very seriously that their endorsements will carry much weight. For the record, I was once a very staunch labor lodge supporter and still would be if I did not know what is really going on. The labor lodge is not about the men and women of the Clay County Sheriff's Office; it is all about the labor lodge and what it can ram down any particular administration's throat. The labor lodge is about the labor lodge and its members. It is not about the citizens of Clay County. During your vision for Clay County video, you repeatedly pointed out what kind of Sheriff the citizens of Clay County deserve. Well let me tell you this Mr. Taylor, the citizens of Clay County DO NOT need a Sheriff that was bought and paid for by a UNION! Folks, when you vote on August 26, keep that in mind. Sheriff Rick Beseler owes his loyalties to the citizens of Clay County and he is already accountable to us. A Sheriff Mike Taylor will owe his loyalty to the UNION that put him in office. Citizens of Clay County do you want a Sheriff that is loyal to you or do you want a Sheriff that is loyal to a UNION? THINK ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU GO TO VOTE! You have stated, Mr. Taylor, that in the past three years very important homicide investigations, SWAT call-outs resulting in death and internal integrity investigations have been “BOTCHED” due to inexperience and integrity issues. You stated these in the plural Mr. Taylor. Were you at any SWAT call-outs? Were you a part of any homicide investigations? Were you a part if any integrity investigations? No, of course you were not. You have nothing more than an opinion sir and again, we all know about opinions. What verifiable evidence do you have Mr. Taylor, that these things were botched? Tell us sir; tell the citizens of Clay County with verifiable facts, exactly what operations and investigations have been "botched". Again, not your OPINION or someone else's OPINION or someone's FEELINGS but hard, verifiable evidence. If you cannot support that statement with verifiable evidence, you should immediately issue a public retraction and a public apology to Sheriff Beseler and his administration. If you got it, show it. If not, I respectfully encourage you to do the right thing and admit your error, retract the statement and issue a public apology. I have no doubt in my mind that if Sheriff Beseler were to misrepresent you, you would be demanding his apology. What about it, Mr. Taylor, do you have the testicular fortitude to do that sir? You also stated that property crime, violent crime, gang and drug activity is increasing at an “alarming rate” while the percentage of the crimes that are being solved is decreasing. What statistics are you using Mr. Taylor. What constitutes an “alarming rate”? Let us see the cold, hard numbers Mr. Taylor, not what you want to portray. You said that the citizens of Clay County deserve a nationally accredited agency. National accreditation is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on law enforcement Mr. Taylor. It is a complete rip-off and anyone that knows anything about the Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement (CALEA) knows that it is a rip-off and that is one of the reasons, in my opinion, why Sheriff Beseler got rid of it. Prior to Sheriff Beseler taking office everyone I know was clamering to get rid of CALEA because it is too costly and everyone knows it is a rip-off. You also said in one of your videos that you were concerned about the limited budget. So, let me get this straight Mr. Taylor, in this time of budget cuts and spending restraints you would once again perpetrate this fraud upon the good citizens of this county and waste their hard earned money? That’s a good plank for your platform Mr. Taylor. Please, keep it. By the way citizens of Clay County, the Clay County Sheriff’s Offiece is accredited. Mr. Taylor conveniently failed to tell you that. It is accretited by the Commision for Florida Law Enforcement Accredition (CFA). CFA standards are virtually the same as CALEA and it does not coast near as much. I don’t know folks, sounds like getting rid of CALEA and going with CFA is good fiscal judgement to me In one of your videos you state that 48% of the men and women of the Clay County Sheriff’s Office have left since Sheriff Beseler took office representing over 250 “ experienced law enforcement professionals”. Your statement is very misleading Mr. Taylor! When you say experienced law enforcement professionals, I think you would agree that the average reasonable thinking citizen would assume that you mean over 250 sworn law enforcement officers have left and that is not the case. Since I am not sure where your statistics came from I am going to provide you and the citizens of Clay County with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) statistics and I’m not going to twist them as you did, Mr. Taylor, I am going to give you the and the citizens the raw numbers. According to FDLE, only 238 people total have left the Sheriff’s Office since Sheriff Beseler took office, not more than 250 as you stated. Of those 238, 62 were part time employees and volunteers. That leaves 176 full time employees. What you did not tell the deserving citizens of Clay County Mr. Taylor, is that some of those people that left were the former Sheriff and his cronies and you did not mention that many of those people have either retired or they were terminated for cause or didn’t make it through training before washing out. If you are going to use numbers and statistics Mr. Taylor, don’t you think the citizens deserve to know the true numbers and not how you twisted them around to portray Sheriff Beseler in a negative way? Folks, do not take my word for it or especially Mr. Taylor’s, go to the FDLE website and look it up. It is www.fdle.state.fl.us/cjst/cjap. You can look up all the numbers yourself. By the way, Mr. Taylor, former Sheriff Lancaster is supporting you very heavily, isn’t he? I mean, I don’t know for sure. I just heard that he is. I’m just asking. Hey folks, you voted Sheriff Lancaster out for a very good reason. Do you honestly want someone he supports, particularly if he is being so silent about it, to be your next Sheriff? Mr. Taylor, if someone is supporting you why not just come right and say it just as you proudly proclaimed the UNION support? That is, unless you think something might rub off. Let’s see, being supported by a UNION and by the former Sheriff that if he were the average Joe Blow, would have been indicted. Wow, did I say that? Sorry Scott, truth hurts. What about it Mr. Taylor, will you proudly proclaim Scott Lancaster’s support and that of all his little minions. Of course, I could have been misinformed and he is not supporting you. I certainly know he is not supporting Sheriff Beseler. So, I wonder whom is he supporting? Anyone that knows Scott Lancaster knows he is supporting someone so if it is not Sheriff Beseler, it must be Mike Taylor. In one of your videos, you said that the men and women of the Sheriff's Office are endorsing your candidacy. That is a blatant falsehood Mr. Taylor. The men and women of the Sheriff's Office have not endorsed you nor are they collectively supporting you and you cannot HONESTLY make the statement that they are. You are about honesty are you not? Fraternal Order of Police lodge 104 has chosen to endorse you, not the men and women of the Sheriff's Office. Lodge 104 speaks for Lodge 104 and Lodge 104 only. It does not speak for the men and women of the Sheriff’s Office. I am a Sheriff's Office member and a Fraternal Order of Police lodge 104 member, I AM NOT supporting you, and I strongly resent being misrepresented for your political gain. Mr. Taylor, if you are truly a man of integrity and not just a politician that will use misleading and false statements to accomplish his purpose, please immediately correct that blatant falsehood. It’s that testicular fortitude thing again. In the what you are concerned about video, you talked a lot about all the things you are concerned about but you never really said anything and then said, “Let me assure you, I have a plan and a vision to address each and every one of these issues.” What you gave us, as examples of what you are concerned about are misrepresentations and distortions and saying, “Let me assure you that you have a plan and a vision” without telling us what that plan and vision is, is nothing more than cheap talk Mr. Taylor. It is just like saying the check is in the mail or I will still respect you in the morning or, what is that third one Mr. Taylor. In your vision video you rambled on and on about the citizens of Clay County deserving a Sheriff that is involved in local government, projects and plans for the future, values experienced personnel and welcomes their input and agrees to be held accountable. You are right Mr. Taylor; the citizens of Clay County do deserve such a Sheriff. They already have one, and more, Rick Beseler. In that same video you mentioned the citizens deserving a Sheriff that is committed to Community Oriented Policing (COP) and will put deputies in the areas where they live, play and worship. Mr. Taylor, you laud yourself as being an experienced law enforcement officer yet you don’t have a clue what the concept of COP is about if you think that it means assigning officers to patrol areas where they live. COP has nothing whatsoever to do with assigning Deputies to patrol areas where they live, play and worship. Some of the things you say on your videos call into question Sheriff Beseler’s integrity. It is one thing to disagree on policies and procedures but to call a man’s integrity into question is an entirely different matter. Integrity is the one thing in life that no one can take away. Integrity must be surrendered. Either provide the evidence Mr. Taylor, that Sheriff Beseler has relinquished his integrity or stop attacking it. To do otherwise will most certainly call your own integrity into question. Before ending this, I would like to take just a moment to address Adios Sheriff and your little sidekick. Dang boys, why are you so angry? After all, didn’t the Sheriff give you nice cushy jobs and don't you work for a supervisor that will let you take time off at a moments notice to go put up Mike Taylor campaign signs. Not everybody working at the Sheriff’s Office has such privileges. I mean, what more could a man ask for guys? Tic Tock is right boys. Tick Tock, Tick Tock. Enjoy it while you can. In closing, Mr. Taylor, if you cannot win this election with truth, honesty and decency and on your own merit but instead must resort to distortions, falsifications and misrepresentations as you have done so far, you do not deserve to be the Sheriff of Clay County and you do not deserve to be my boss. Citizens of Clay County, I leave you with this last thought in mind. Do not listen to distortions, misrepresentations and political rhetoric. Instead, spend a little time seeking out facts, arm yourselves with the truth and make an informed voting decision. Vote for whom ever you chose but please, arm yourselves with the facts before you do and ask yourselves this question; who better represents the interests of the citizens of this county; someone that has already proven himself or some unknown who is bought and paid for by a UNION. Thank you for your time. Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 12:30pm.
I will not be voting for Sheriff Beseler. I don't know what kind of Sheriff that either Taylor or Newman will make. Of course, I didn't know what kind of Sheriff that Beseler would make either. However, I have not been impressed. After Beseler took office an individual named Kit Taylor had an article written in the Clay Today concerning mistreat by officers and the jail. The jail did not have a policy in place to insure the inmate received treatment in a timely manner. Source Clay Today and public records. Shortly after that an inmate died Kevin Neff medical exaimers report states medical reason. He clearly did not recieve proper treatment. Source TU and public records. Several incident had happened inside the Sheriff Office. Here's a link to an article that explains many situations. Source TU http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092305/nec_19835865.shtml In another situation Commissioner Rutledge visited Sheriff Beseler and offered to give him taxpayers money to buy only Crown Victorias prior to the budget. Shortly after that Sheriff Beseler showed up to give the citizens back 1 million dollars. Shortly after that his office appeared before the BCC requesting money to buy additional vehicles. In my opinion that is a misuse of a public office and violation of the public's trust. But the headlines of giving 1 million back looked good. Source Public Records The death of the man off College Drive who was Tasered. Taser International clearly states subjects who appear to experience a state of distress and behaving irrationally. Should not be tasered. Source First Coast News http://www.firstcoastnews.com/printfullstory.aspx?storyid=65977 Baby drug bust. Here we go with the we didn't have a policy excuse. Source TU http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=64563 Pointing fingers and PAL. Source MCS http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/051008/nec_277147158.shtml Continued drug allegations and improper investigations. Source TU http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/051008/nec_277147158.shtml Big Blunder. Source TU and News4Jax http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/052108/met_281106550.shtml http://www.news4jax.com/news/16357235/detail.html The Sheriff was the president of the FOP and a big supporter. When the FOP did not decide to support him all of a sudden they became a bad group. Source Sheriff's Bios. This is just a small amount of things I've placed on here. If I had more time I could put more on here. I have seen public records lots of them from others. They tell a very different story than what I would support for a Sheriff. I would fully support an appointed Sheriff that is a professional law enforcement officer and not a good politician. Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 1:25pm.
Here are some crime stats that were taken from the CCSO website: It states robbery increased 20.48%, aggravated assault/battery increased by 30.32%, auto theft increased 11.20%, burglary increased 4.9%, and theft increased 2%. Source CCSO website. More blunders. Source TU http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/100105/met_19942454.shtml Oakleaf situation. Source TU http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/101005/met_19988505.shtml Not to make this an animal control blog but since it was mentioned. A citizens goes to Animal Control discovers employees are taking home animals. They attempt to get this investigated. However, he is attacked and accused of wrong doings. This is not the first time that has happened at animal control just asked a local reporter who was attacked also. However, the person being accused of battery had no record at the clerk's office. I have not been able to find a tresspass order. Now if CTLAC can be issued a trespass order for merely collecting signatures. I find it hard to believe you could commit battery and not get a trespass order. Just my thoughts. However, even the Sheriff has the understanding they have serious problems there. Since he was apart of the investigation I thought it would be appropriate to place it in this blog. Source TU http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/021108/met_245742036.shtml
Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 2:29pm.
I agree the murder of the vet tech was solved by FDLE and the vast DNA data base they have established. It was linked to a prior offender that should have been behind bars. Since he was out at a minimum he should have been monitored. What a sad death and situation! Does anyone know the status of the 2 murders in the Greenwood Subdivison. Have these murders been solved? http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042407/met_clay.shtml Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 3:20pm.
Another blunder and questions surrounding investigation. http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/040908/met_266541339.shtml edited wrong link provided.
Submitted by finder on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 3:38pm.
Alpha-Omega and Sun Tzu in the same thread. I don't think Communism had been thought of in 500 BC. And any of the great Military Tacticians has studied Sun Tzu. George probably wore out more than one copy. Mike Heemer
Submitted by SunTzu on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 3:55pm.
Your use of Alpha-Omega as your identity exhibits your arrogance, your linking my idenity to communism exhibts your ignorance and your rantings exhibit your mentality. By the way, I sense that you have never been in a war. Just so you will know sir, war IS violent. Perhaps you should study Sun Tzu before you show more of your ignorance. You ASS umed wrong sir and again, exibited your ignorance. 90% and it includes the civilians. WOW Alpha, where did you get your statistics? Probably from the same place Mike Taylor gets his, anal extraction. I am glad you did stay awake. Pay attention and if you can resolve your myopic condition, you may just learn something. Actually, don't pay attention and continue to show your ignorance here. It speaks so well for your candidate. If Mike Taylor agrees with your point of view I guess he is going to take a cut in pay if he shold win the elction. Don't hold your breath. I beg to differ with you sir but the members of lodge 104 are SOME of the members of the Sheriff's Office, not ALL of the members of the Sheriff's Office and lodge 104 does not speak for any of the civilian employees and neither do you sir. By the way, for all of you citizens that do not know the difference, lodge 104 is divided into two separate intities. The Fraternal lodge and the labor lodge. Not all members of the fraternal lodge belong to the labor lodge. Although, I do suspect that most of them do and for good reason. What ever the labor lodge decides is going to affect everyone so it only makes good common sense to belog so at least you may voice your opinion. However, make no mistake folks, it is a very small hand full of the labor lodge members that ram rod the entire show. In the words of a famous politician, in this institution to get along you must go along. Such is the case with lodge 104. If you don't go along, you are ostracized. Make no mistake Mr. Alpha, I know all about putting my life on the line. Do you? I also know all about unions in general and the FOP labor lodge in particular. He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. Sun Tzu Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 4:47pm.
Rick Beseler bios: President, Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 104, 1980-82 FOP President Nelson Cuba's statement: "Sheriff Beseler has the mentality, of what I would call, being that, I come from a communist country and being of Cuban descent, I would call a Fidel Castro mentality," Cuba said. http://wokv.com/localnews/2008/06/fop-wants-change-in-clay.html Lots of the communist talk around the county. If he rules with a iron fist the why all the blunders in the Sheriff's Dept. However, he is still responsible for what they do as if he did it himself. FSS 30.07 Deputy sheriffs.--Sheriffs may appoint deputies to act under them who shall have the same power as the sheriff appointing them, and for the neglect and default of whom in the execution of their office the sheriff shall be responsible. I think another individual was not prosecuted for a murder too. I can not find that information but I'm still looking. Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 5:00pm.
The information I posted came from the Clay County Sheriff's Office. So you should take that up with the Sheriff and his staff. I provided a source and it can be verified. As a matter of fact wasn't it UCR reports the staff was changing that caused the man to walk in the blunder of the year at the Sheriff's Office. I guess that would have a way of altering UCR reports. No, I've never been reprimanded by Geroge Bush. Is this the same George Bush that was determined by the Grand Jury to be incompetent to be a Commissioner and he should consider if he was worthy to continue to serve the citizens? Since we are aware that incompetence is not a criteria for removal from office we are stuck with him. However, you did remind me of another incident to list with the above blunders coming from the Sheriff's Office. The lady who appeared before the Commissioners requesting an investigation of the Sheriff. According to the public records that I have been able to review about the above situation you reference. Why did a deputy of Clay County have I think 8 or 9 violation of failing to follow the Sheriff's Office policy and Beseler refused to investigate. I thought he was for integrity and ruled with an iron fist. Submitted by Alpha-Omega on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 5:05pm.
Wow, my point must have hit home as you showed just how professional on this blog as you are at work. Profanities very nice Sun Tzu! You are one classy guy! Boy, if you were so confident in Rick you would not be attempting to convience anyone who reads this blog to vote for him. I don't really do blogs, but after Taylor posted his financial statement I detect it may have hit a Sun Tzu nerve. If you want last word after this go ahead I really do not feel the need to spar with you on a blog. Like I said I made my point to your non-sense and we will let the voters decide. Oh, by the way what war was it you fought in? In fact your military career was somewhat a dissapointment. One more thing you risked your life a time or two! Thank You so much, keep up the good work! Submitted by Alpha-Omega on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 5:07pm.
You represent yourself with communism and a violent character from history - nice! I almost fell asleep with your non-sense as I read it. You obviously are part of the command staff at the sheriff's office. I have seen your words to often in e-mails and memos. Why not start with your integrity Sun Tzu? You have no intentions nor have you ever of wanting to see a new boss. That would only hurt your over paid opportunist nature. Unions this is not what you really want to talk about is it? It is about endorsements and the fact Beseler did not secure them. He sure had no problem attempting, but it just did not work out for him. I guess he just had to settle for old Clay Electric again and even they are not real motivated to help him this time. Oh by the way those Unions that you claim are so bad, well, they are made up of police officers, firemen and teachers. These are the same people who either risk their lives each day or educate our children. You really don't care or comprehend so much about that do you Sun Tzu? Almost forgot, FOP #104 are the members of the sheriff's office and the vote to endorse Mike Taylor was overwelming. I know it is safe to say Rick has lost 90 % support of his agency to include civilians. What the people should understand is the employees know better than anyone what direction public safety is going in Clay County and it is not pretty! Yes, lets talk about integrity and botched investigations. Do tell who really solved the vet homicide and the mistakes that were made. What about the fire tower murder, no accident, no murder, no accident case? Do tell! Prostitute Gove Park case the suspect walked the line alright and right out the front doors of the jail. I'm listening... Oh by the way how is that stand up murder coming along over there near Wells Rd? Oak Leaf case well lets just say "Clay don't Play?" or is it "Beseler lie people die?" Moving along, so the national CALEA is a rip off, but the state CALEA is not?? No I'll tell you what a rip off is paying the Sheriff and his command staff a half million in salaries and a quarter of a million in benefits $750,000.00. Cops wow! you guys really do not get that concept. It is more than just using them to drive around on bikes or setting up the fair booth to help Rick win an election. Sometimes they have to do real police work and that may mean helping prevent or solving crimes in areas where they live, play and worship. I could go on forever, but I have my point. I tell the citizens this who would you trust more the hard working men and women who have devoted their lives and made sacrifices to serve you for little pay and little glory or a sheriff who makes 6 figures a year and loves to see himself on TV and could lose his job with 1 vote?
Submitted by TruthHurts on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 6:01pm.
Never underestimate your opponent!! All warfare is based on deception. A skilled general must be master of the complementary arts of simulation and dissimulation; while creating shapes to confuse and delude the enemy he conceals his true dispositions and ultimate intent. When capable he feigns incapacity; when near he makes it appear that he is far away; when far away, that he is near. Moving as intangibly as a ghost in the starlight, he is obscure, inaudible. His primary target is the mind of the opposing commander; the victorious situation, a product oh his creative imagination. Sun Tzu realized that an indispensable preliminary to battle was to attack the mind of the enemy. Source= Sun Tzu “The Art Of War" Great Book!!! TRUTHHURTS Please go to http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer and sign the petition for the Fair Tax Bill. Tell Congress to pass this Bill.
Submitted by Observer on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 6:28pm.
I appreciate who you’re not voting for. One thing you failed to do is post all of the findings in Lt. Conrad's office memorandum. Yes there are increases but you fail to mention the decreases. Couple those stats with the FDLE stats and there you have it, an agency making lemonade with the lemons it has been given. Clay County is better off than Jacksonville and the surrounding counties pertaining to their crime rate. Take a look yourself at the website I gave you can pull up other counties since you so good and comparing apples and oranges. Good job on reporting the facts, glad you’re not an officer, you'll never be able to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth." I’m looking forward to the fruit salad. I won't be responding to you as you have proven to me, “IN MY OPINION" you skew the facts to suite your objectives. http://claysheriff.com/documents/AnnualUCR2007-revised021308.pdf Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 6:46pm.
I did not say I reported every stat the Clay County Sheriff's Office provided. However, you have provided the link I think the readers of the blogs can see for themself and read the report. Do you think these facts may be skewed a little too. In his report it states: CR#2007002019 – This homicide occurred on January 19, 2007. The victim, Janie Lee Johnson B/F 25 YOA, was killed by handgun. The offender was identified as Michael Alan Wierer W/M 68 YOA. This case was cleared by arrest on 01/20/2007. The case may have been cleared by arrest. But the guy walks free today. A little misleading for the blunder of the year. So I guess all numbers can be skewed to fit whatever you want them say. Including the UCR numbers you provided too. As that was part of the problems with the big blunder. Don't you think?
Submitted by PrincessLeia on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 6:51pm.
You are the one stating statistics. Try to stay on the subject. An apple is red, an orange is, well, orange. Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 6:54pm.
That is a stats it is right under the section that says: Violent crime increased by 18.18% Yes that says increase as with the other stats I provided.
Submitted by PrincessLeia on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 6:59pm.
Please, Angela! You know as well as I do that you cannot take part of a report and post it as you have and expect anyone to think it is accurate. Or maybe you really don't know that. My gosh, you are not even worthy of this response, so it will be my last directed to you as well.
Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 7:03pm.
The entire report has been posted for all the readers of the blogs. I guess now you'll asked if I skewed the myraid of news articles of all the blunders coming from the Sheriff's Office too. I guess I didn't include the entire newspaper. Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 7:17pm.
I was wondering if you found this to be included in integrity in the Sheriff's Office. The man who appeared for Sheriff Beseler at one of the forums. He requested signs paid for by the county taxpayers. Now according to the minutes these signs were to cost about 5K dollars. Now he was asking for the 3rd set of signs. Of course at taxpayers expense. Here's an email (public records):
From: James Johnson WAYNE, WE HAVE ALREADY MADE TWO SETS OF THE "SAM SAUNDERS MEMORIAL HIGHWAY" SIGNS FOR MR. HENDRY AND NOW HE IS ASKING FOR A THIRD GROUP TO BE MADE ALSO THE PERSONAL "BRAND" OF MR SAUNDERS HAS NOW BEEN CHANGED TO SOMETHING ELSE, CHANGING THE ORIGINAL DESIGN GIVEN TO US. IF WE ARE ASKED TO MAKE THESE SIGNS AGAIN THEY WILL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL AFTER THE 218 RESURFACING PROJECT IS DONE. From: Dave Austin Sent: Fri 3/2/2007 3:31 PM To: Fritz Behring Cc: Subject: FW: Saunders Memorial Signs Fritz, FYI... Dave James Just work your priorities. If the issue continues to change let me and Dave know, however stay the course until directed to do other wise. Public safety first. Wayne I find securing this benefit for himself and using county taxpayers dollars to get signs does not speak of integrity to me coming out of the Sheriff's Office. Isn't Mr. Hendry like second in command at the Sheriff's Office. Well taxpayers we were buying him some signs.
Submitted by Magnumforce on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 7:18pm.
Isn’t there something better to blog about? Does anyone have a garden to report on? Any inside info on where a good fishing hole is? No wonder Wayne Bolla decided to get the heck out of Clay County politics and sail the world. life is too short to put up with the bull.
Submitted by lilyslore on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 7:23pm.
... you're starting to sound like Islander. Of all people on this blog, you have the best potential for interesting posts as a police officer. One of the best things MCS does is posting arrests around the county. I am constantly unnerved at how many petty crooks and violent bad guys you and yours subdue every single week. You guys deserve every cent you get and more. But I am also pretty sure you could spin some tales on the lighter side of some of these guys that doesn't make it into the paper. For our enligtenment, (and yes, our amusement) please, give it a spin. Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman
Submitted by Observer on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 9:25pm.
Since certain bloggers have their objectives let’s have a fair and balanced look at the positives attributes of the Sheriff (since people love misery which is reflected by certain bloggers). Be careful you can’t always trust what the media reports and that goes both ways (good or bad). Here’s a case where the Sheriff recognized a problem, implemented campaign objectives and created DART (similar to JSO), a proactive approach to crime solving. Isn’t that what a Sheriff tasked with doing? I don’t think this was ever done in the county prior to its implementation. From what I remember, the operation was done in conjunction with Green Cove Spring Police Officers. http://www.justicecoalition.org/newspaper/November2005/VAnov~01.pdf Don’t have a specific link, but you can verify the information with Ms. Youngerman and Rep. Jennifer Carol. Sheriff Beseler and Sharon Youngerman of the Quigley House spoke to Representative Jennifer Carol, on behalf of victims of domestic violence, and got legislation to make it a felony to trespass on the facility of a domestic violence shelter. That is also proactive and is putting another tool in the belt of the police STATEWIDE. Innovative, cops without borders! The first part of thinking outside the box in the innovative plan was creating a working agreement with JSO to “arrest those violent offenders.” ya’ll talk about being on the rise. In round two he did again with Alachua, Bradford, and Putman County. And within the borders of Clay, he added SWAT members from the two police departments. Yahoo and Google it, it’s the first thing that comes up. http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=93102http://www.claysheriff.com/05_01_00news.asp?NewsID=334 Here’s one link that has similar accolades to other candidates “patting themselves on the back.” If others get do it in the media/internet and whatever, let it be known he also he worked on cases that people were arrested and people were cleared of charges/allegations. “Fair and balanced”, a little old but it serves my point (5-3-04). Sorry no pictures.http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=40778 “Night Site” This County never had police special team and made up of deputies from other parts of the force to work on getting bad guys, using a proactive approach. I heard about this from a detective. They told me their case load goes down when the police do this operation. Unfortunately, I have no evidence of the detective telling me this but when I get a chance I’ll do a public record request to see how many robberies and car break-ins occurred in a similar time frame.http://www.firstcoastnews.com/printfullstory.aspx?storyid=86537 How about this one in the rant and rave section of Craigslist: http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/rnr/736290898.html This is praise from an anonymous person about their house being checked by the deputy. As Angela so proudly “tooted her horn” under Chapter 30, Florida Law and the Sheriff is responsible for his deputies’ actions, this directly reflects the “Rickster.” BTW this was posted June 28, 2008, not so long ago. Let’s face it folks, we all know the media likes to report bad things that happen. Of those bad thinks they report, most of them are crimes where the bad guy was arrested (stats reflect that see above post). Of those guys/gals arrested they are now in jail or awaiting trail. There are murder cases where the defendants plead guilty (Cecil Matthew-killed his wife in Oakleaf) and numerous other defendants that plead guilty to violent crimes, petty crimes, because the deputies did a good job. That job was done under this Sheriff and done under other Sheriffs (past and future). Crime rates are like a rollercoaster. They are influenced by other factors, such as unemployment, economy, and opportunity. Look at the relationship of the offenders in those crimes reported in the county. We don’t have serial rapists and murders running our streets. There are other factors which play a role in crime reporting. How many of those crimes are false, and couldn’t be proven to be false (insurance fraud, sexual crimes, and who knows what else). I could continue to search the internet and interview persons in the community about what they think of the Sheriff’s Office or the Sheriff. Not everyone will be happy with the Sheriff or the deputies and many will be the opposite. One thing that I have noticed it is a select few on the blogs are protesting Sheriff Beseler. Frankly, they don’t represent the community as a whole. They are just a small sampling. I encourage all who read the blogs to take a jurors approach to the information and form their own opinion. The Sheriff continues to make lemonade.
Submitted by Observer on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 10:04pm.
2007 Crime in Florida Clay CountySummary of UCR DataClay County20062007% ChangePopulation176,901184,6444.4Total Arrests10,44910,6211.6Total Index Offenses5,4165,5322.1Violent Rate468.1496.66.1Non-Violent Rate2,593.52,499.4-3.6Index Rate3,061.62,996.0-2.1 Here is the OVERALL and pay specific attention to the population growth. And low and behold the arrest rate is up also, to reflect the changes. Sounds like the agency is doing something about it.http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FSAC/Crime_Trends/Map/10.htm BTW arent you the person who was reprimanded by GB in a BCC meeting. Saw that on TV.
Submitted by Magnumforce on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 10:46pm.
Lil, Like the time I arrested two people driving the same car for DUI. Yep the original driver was all over the road and when I light him up he changed seats with the front seat passenger. The front seat passengers driving was worse than the original driver. They were drunk as Cooter Brown.
Submitted by Angela on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 10:46pm.
Didn't I already answer these questions. I've never endorsed a candidate. I think Mr. Taylor has an impressive resume. I think Mr. Newman does too. I know for a fact I will not vote for Beseler. So I'll post the answers again. The information I posted came from the Clay County Sheriff's Office. So you should take that up with the Sheriff and his staff. I provided a source and it can be verified. As a matter of fact wasn't it UCR reports the staff was changing that caused the man to walk in the blunder of the year at the Sheriff's Office. I guess that would have a way of altering UCR reports. No, I've never been reprimanded by Geroge Bush. Is this the same George Bush that was determined by the Grand Jury to be incompetent to be a Commissioner and he should consider if he was worthy to continue to serve the citizens? Since we are aware that incompetence is not a criteria for removal from office we are stuck with him. However, you did remind me of another incident to list with the above blunders coming from the Sheriff's Office. The lady who appeared before the Commissioners requesting an investigation of the Sheriff. According to the public records that I have been able to review about the above situation you reference. Why did a deputy of Clay County have I think 8 or 9 violation of failing to follow the Sheriff's Office policy and Beseler refused to investigate. I thought he was for integrity and ruled with an iron fist. Submitted by 209north on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 11:17pm.
Sun Tuz, Do you know what the phone number to Pop-A-Lock is? I locked my keys in the car... Submitted by 209north on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 11:21pm.
Sheriff had better put his Nite Site back on the Wells road area, FOUR car where just stolen from Mike Shad Nissan, one driven through the plate glass window.
Submitted by SunTzu on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 11:25pm.
Nope, sorry my friend. Can't help you there. Good luck.
Submitted by Observer on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 12:44am.
Against my better judgement, I responding to you even when I said I wouldn't. Those voices in your head continue to buzz. If you paid attention to the entire tread, each time, you would have noticed my posting moved to the end because I tried to edited it so it would be easier to read. Good job repeating your babble and half stories. Your on target for receiving a Edward Morrow Award for blogs. I see you still haven't read it all (UCR Stats) on the site. It's no wonder you come off as someone who sounds as if they have their stuff together, but it reality you are a few french fries short of a happy meal. That's okay, NGRI once again.
Submitted by SunTzu on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 1:10am.
No Alpha, I am afraid nothing hit home because you did not make any point and you did not make any point because you did not say anything. You rambled and talked a lot but never said anything. If I missed your point, by all means, please enlighten me. I am not sure what you mean by profanities. Unless of course you are referring to me saying that, you and Mike Taylor must have gotten your statistics from the same place, anal extraction. That is your obvious source and I truly fail to see how that could possibly be considered profanity. I don’t have a clue what Mike Taylor’s campaign funds are and couldn’t possibly care less. What could his campaign funds possibly mean to me? I truly believe you missed the point Alpha. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Make no mistake, I am personally supporting Sheriff Beseler and I make no bones about that, but if you will refer to my original statement, you will clearly see that I encouraged everyone to become informed and armed with facts. All I am doing Alpha is posting facts that counter the misrepresentations and falsifications being broadcast by the Taylor campaign. I am simply posting facts, not fiction and I am encouraging people to make an informed decision. Surely Sir, you cannot fault someone for wanting to speak the truth and I certainly hope you would want everyone to know the facts before they decide who to vote for. Unless of course, you are unscrupulous or you are afraid of people knowing the facts for fear they would vote for Sheriff Beseler. Also, if you will recall, I encouraged Mike Taylor or anyone else to show me why I should support him and I would. So far, all I have seen is more political rhetoric from Taylor’s cannon fodder. You really don’t get it do you Alpha? I must say Alpha, I am saddened that you have chosen not to engage and I take no joy in having the last word. I really do wish you would reconsider. We were having such fun, you and I and you were doing so well with your self-expression. I will miss our exchanges. I am sure however, that there are those that will take up the cause in your stead. Perhaps 209North or Adios Sheriff will take your place or maybe Angela. Boy now that is a challenge, keeping track of her ramblings. Who ever it is, I do look forward to it. In closing, you purport to know all about my military career yet your assumption is once again in error. I have no idea what you meant by the comment that I risked my life a time or two or that my military career was a disappointment but since you are no longer responding, I guess that will remain a mystery. Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. Sun Tzu
Submitted by SunTzu on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 1:21am.
Hey 209North, I found that number for you. It's 547-769-2770. At least I think that's it. Give it a try. Later Submitted by Angela on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 6:54am.
Would you please provide me with the Webster definition of seaking. Or maybe you might need to do a little more editing. While you are editing you may want to revise your misleading UCR reported stats as well. The numbers you have included and proudly displayed covers not only the Clay County Sheriff's Office but the Orange Park Police, Green Cove Springs Police, the Fish and Game, even the FHP arrest in Clay County. Seems you are giving all their credit to the Sheriff as well. Do you think that would be a little misleading? At least my stats came directly from the Sheriff's Office. Time for some editing
Submitted by Observer on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 7:04am.
We all fall short from the glory...(your deity) Another fact that remains that can't be skewed is the overall "crimes cleared." Clay County SO, not the police departments have cleared approximately 42% of crimes committed (arrest and exception to arrest -SAO won't prosecute no surprise there). Yes, there is a rise in some crimes but don't run with that because always remember crimes must be reported with the relationship of the victim to the criminal. It appears most of the crimes that are committed are someone that is known to the victim or there is a familial relationship.Source same ole place, CCSO web site. Good day all and in the infamous words of John Bender you are a “neo maxie, zoom dwebbie.” I just love that line.
Submitted by Angela on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 9:49am.
Thank you for making my point “ Yes, there is a rise in some crimes”. I stated when I posted those stats “ Here are some crime stats that were taken from the CCSO website”. What should be of interest to the citizens is the increase in violent crimes in our community. In 2004 there were 655 violent crimes reported. Now for the years 05-07 are 800, 828, and 917 reported. The moral of that story people need to protect themselves and their property. This is not Clay of the old days. Now I’ve been accused of being reprimanded by the incompetent Commissioner as if he has any creditability to reprimand anyone. However, his refusal to continue to do his job and request the investigation the lady asked for does continue to affirm his determination by the grand jury Then I’m called ignorant by one of the Beseler supporters. Of course let’s not forget the seaking of the fly swatter comment. It seems to me the Beseler supporters are beginning to sound like the Taylor supporters. Oh a 42% clearance rate would mean an almost 60% rate of those that are not being cleared. Magnum I’ve offered the solution of an appointed professional law enforcement officer. You didn’t think that was a good idea. So this will be the status quo from the camps until after August 26th. Let’s just be thankful the Animal Control Director’s position is not an elected position. Submitted by MrPike on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 10:58am.
Can't a lot of the increase in violent crimes be attributed to the population increase? Also, it seems like the crime clearing rate isn't that great but 42% is pretty much double the state average. That means that we have one of the best clearing rates in the state. Submitted by MrPike on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 11:18am.
Let me preface this by saying I am not a law enforcement professional. Please correct me if i am wrong (but only if you have a high level of law enforcement knowledge) - The sheriff's office has a very limited ability to prevent crime. They have tools to try to deter crime, but they are really a reactive agency. I think one of the biggest deterrents is that our solve rate is one of the higher ones in the state. That shows me that the sheriff is doing his job. There isn't much more to do than to show criminals "When you commit a crime in Clay County, you are going to have a greater chance of getting caught becasue our solve rate is higher than most other counties."
Submitted by PrincessLeia on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 3:58pm.
I agree with you, and I am really glad you commented. Angela takes those numbers that suit her purpose alone, and everyone knows that it doesn't hold water. I am still waiting for someone to show me proof (not their opinion or a newspaper article about finger pointing) that Sheriff Beseler should not be elected for a second term. If the Sheriff were guilty of botching SWAT callouts that resulted in death or of warning someone that they were being investigated he would have already been indicted by a grand jury. Shorstein would see to it. But there is nothing to those allegations- just some election season mudslinging. In the end, I do believe that common sense will prevail.
Submitted by OneMann on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 5:11pm.
I don't want to argue the points you made, just make a couple of observations. First, Pike, criminals don't compare case clearance rates of area's sheriff's offices before committing their crimes. And even if they did, there isn't a single SO's stats that wouldn't read more like an invitation than a deterrent. Princess, I don't doubt that Angela (or anyone else in any discussion) uses numbers that suit her purpose. It'd be silly of her to bring up stats that don't add to her contentions. But what really caught my eye in your comment is your request for proof that Beseler hasn't earned your vote for his re-election. And that, of course, is impossible. Voting choices are acts of individual judgment and conscience, not the compilation of information that results in proof. If proof were available, we could just skip the time and expense of the election and give the job to the candidate proven best. Michael S. Mann michaelsmann@comcast.net Submitted by Angela on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 5:18pm.
Sorry to disappoint you but those are not Angela's numbers. Those are the numbers released by the Clay County Sheriff's Office. Unless you are saying I am Lt. Conrad. For the record I'm not. Those number were taken directly from the report released by the Sheriff's Office and is posted on the blogs for everyone to see. I hardly think that I have misrepresented the Sheriff's numbers. Property crimes in 2004 were 3606. In 05-07 they jumped to 4134, 4588, and 4615. Source FDLE Violent crimes in 2004 were 655. In 05-07 they jumped to 800, 828, and 917. Source FDLE I think the post of today would affirm the concerns of the cars being stolen and the women robbed at the mall and the numbers from the Sheriff's Office. However, I don't see anything misrepresented. If you have more favorable numbers you can put them on the blogs. The UCR reports show total crime index had increased from 2006 to 2007. While the clearance rate in 2006 was 41.8 and decreased to 41.1 in 2007. I guess those number are skewed too. Source FDLE Well I suggest you take that up with the Sheriff. He supplied the numbers to FDLE. We can wait until the numbers for the first half (Jan-June) of 2008 which should be released shortly.
Submitted by PrincessLeia on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 5:20pm.
OneMann- I am still waiting for someone to direct me to something that would validate the claim of impropriety or lack of integrity on Sheriff Beseler's part. In all of the accusations that have been made, I don't recall seeing the words "I feel" or "It is my belief" before these accusations are made. I apologize that I did not make myself more clear.
Submitted by PrincessLeia on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 5:20pm.
Read the report again. Those are preliminary numbers.
Submitted by PrincessLeia on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 5:26pm.
OneMann, Not trying to be too picky, but what I said was that I wanted to see proof that the Sheriff should not be elected for another term, not why I should not vote for him. Nonetheless, I should have been more clear. Submitted by Angela on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 5:27pm.
You are correct those are preliminary numbers. The actual numbers could be higher depending on the final report. However, it is the one released by the Sheriff's Office and had they been better in the actual report then he should have posted those. Since he didn't I have to work with the numbers he did released.
Submitted by finder on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 5:46pm.
I wanted to see proof that the Sheriff should not be elected for another term, What would you consider acceptable proof? If I were to want to convince you what would I have to present? It just seems to me that some people are spinning their wheels throwing stuff against the wall when in fact you have made up your mind and do not really want to be confused with facts or at least not those facts. Not to belabor the point but that is a pretty tall order there. It seems to me that if someone proves that he shouldn't be elected then it would seem pretty foolish to me that you would vote for him. I would think that one is a natural progression of the other. Debate is a good thing, but arguing for the sake of disagreeing with someone seems a bit of a waste of time. Kind of like the blogs about CCAC but with a better class of vocabulary. Mike Heemer
Submitted by PrincessLeia on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 6:00pm.
finder, Something other than anothers' opinion is what I am looking for. Evidence of the incompetence and lack of integrity that is being claimed. That is what I am looking for. But you are correct. Arguing is pointless.
Submitted by Observer on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 6:40pm.
Well I'm no expert by no means but the crime index and the other factors influence "the crime rate." A special person on the blogs still can't get it. Just look at the numbers. All of the numbers, in all of the columns, contribute to creating the crime rate, not just a select few which keeps getting repeated. For the simple minded person.... just compare our county's numbers to other counties. Our numbers are better, which reflects the good job the men and women of the SO are doing under the person leading the agency. I done with banging my head. I have go and drink some soap and clean out my mouth. Enjoyed it! Submitted by Angela on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 7:34pm.
I think the bloggers can read the reports. In 2004 if they were 655 violent crimes committed and in 2007 917 violent crimes I think it would be safe to say that's an increase in crime. I think if the clearance rate was 49.6% in 2004 and it is 41.1% in 2007 then it would be safe to say that is a decrease in the clearance rates. Observer stated: "Our numbers are better, which reflects the good job the men and women of the SO are doing under the person leading the agency." Because of the numbers above I will not be voting for Sheriff Beseler coupled with the news articles written. Those would just be a small fraction of the problems that are coming out of the agency and was picked up by the papers. I think giving another person or the right person an opportunity to lead the agency we could get back up to that almost 50% clearance rate. At least everyone would have a 50/50 chance of the person who committed a crime being charged. And hopefully no blunders that allow people like Wierer to walk free. Besides I don't like buying one of his top men signs with county taxpayers money. Voting is a personal choice and the readers will need to make up their own minds about their personal choice come August. Submitted by MrPike on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 9:43pm.
OneMann – I think you just inadvertently proved my point. You can’t really prevent crime from happening. Doubling the state average in clearing rates is about the best you can do. All of this talk about the number of crimes increasing is really non-sense. What can anyone do as sheriff to prevent crime? Nothing… At least this is the point that we have come to realize here. Submitted by MrPike on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 9:47pm.
Angela – You have made a skewed comparison. You are talking about the overall crime clearance rate and then talking about how violent crimes have increased. The violent crime clearance rate in 2007 was 71.19% (Source CCSO website). Also, even thought the percentage of crimes cleared went down from 2004 to 2006, a larger number of crimes were cleared (multiply the rate times the number of crimes). Also, the underlying information is a little skewed simply by nature. Some crimes take months to clear while others are cleared within hours of the report being filed. I would think that violent crimes, home invasions, and robberies take longer to investigate than other crimes (due to the nature of them), and with a large increase in violent crime I would expect the clear rate to decrease. Let’s recap, shall we. The actual number of crimes cleared has increased (you have to multiply the percentage by the number of crimes), while the number of crimes that take longer to investigate (violent crimes) has increased as well. I think this means that the sheriff’s office is doing better than in years past....they are becoming more efficient. Numbers are tricky things, and unless you know about the underlying data you don’t really know anything at all. Numbers alone mean nothing! **Example (in simple everyday words) – Let’s say you are in the market to buy 500 VCR’s. I will sell you 500 VCR’s for $500. Sounds great, but what would be the first thing you ask? What is wrong with them, what kind of VCR’s are they? Does this include delivery? You really can’t make your decision based solely on the numbers… you need information about the data. Submitted by Angela on Tue, 07/22/2008 - 10:18pm.
Oh okay I get this now! It just like the report that says the woman killed by Wierer was cleared by arrest. However, today he walks free. So, just because the Clay County Sheriff's Office showed a good number (cleared) it really don't mean anything. Just a bunch of figures that are worth only the paper they are written on. So we change a few things, make the numbers look good, and people walk. Not really sure that makes me feel better either. It certainly doesn't make me want to vote for Beseler. What is important the incident at the mall and cars stolen from the dealership. It is becoming an all to often occurrence in Clay County. People are talking about ...Here are the recent blog postings with the most comments. |
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Welcome to the blogs! I loved the words of wisdom at the beginning. I am not impressed by Union Endorsements at all, and never have been. Unions serve a purpose no doubt to those that belong, and in someways have been made necessary by the greed and corruption at other levels. However, an endorsement from a Union only means that they believe the Candidate they support is somehow going to be better for their own unified and ultimately personal gain of it's members. It does not indicate to me that they are the best person for the job.
This Sheriffs race has proven to me that the County needs to change how they get their Chief LEO.
The mud slinging just sends me the opposite direction. Thats how I came to not just support the amendments the CTLAC have sponsored but actually have taken a stand in supporting the group itself, the mud slinging that has gone on against them. That's why I also pay no heed to the attacks against CCAC because of the "man on a mission" who is constantly hurling accusations.
I have seen nothing from the Mike Taylor Campaign that has left a good impression. I keep going back to the reality that until the election season started there were no complaints about the Incumbant Sheriff that had ever reached my eyes or ears.