Bridges and a Category II Storm

Let me get this straight.  As I'm reading your post, the plan is to put in a toll bridge and toll road in the Shands area, and then tear down the Shands Bridge.

This means that if someone south of Orange Park wanted to go to St. Augustine they would either have to pay the toll, or drive miles out of the way to the high traffic area around the Buckman.  There are also a number of people, like my wife, who commonly take the Shands as a back way to avoid traffic going to and from work on the Southside.  I guess they would also have to pay a toll.

We have tollways back at home in Chicago, but they are an alternate, faster route with less traffic, not the only reasonable path that one could take across the river for several miles.

If they ever do build the beltway, which I am begining to doubt, I wonder how much the toll is going to be.

Felix;

Take a look at this link. You might have to enlarge it to read it but it has the prices etc. Of course they are subject to change without notice.

http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/forum_docs/Handout%207%20-%20Traffic_Revenue.pdf

This is the main link. Lots of stuff listed.

http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/index.asp

Take a look at some of the blogs and comments about the tollway. Do a search for beltway and tollway. You'll find lots of info.

It isn't pretty.

Mike Heemer

To answer one of your questions...

With the Shands replaced with a toll bridge followed by a toll road, what is the plan for evacuations? Are we going send everyone a bill for the toll, are we going to suspend the toll for individuals and let the state pay a set amount for each car that uses the bridge and road or will the owners be good neighbors and just let people use it for free for some given amount of time? For some reason I just can’t see the last choice happening.

After Hurricane Andrew hit the Florida's Turnpike DID suspend tolls during the evacuation and the relief efforts..as to who paid for the suspended tolls....I do not have an aswer to that question....

I think the folks will be evacuating prior to the storm not during it. During the storm only emergency response people will be on the roadways and most likely bridges shut down.

During a state of emergency where an evacuation is ordered and needed, the toll boths should be closed and anyone passing through should not be charged. It should be a freebee.  

TRUTHHURTS

Please go to

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

and sign the petition for the Fair Tax Bill. Tell Congress to pass this Bill.

TH;

That's one of the problems with this road. There aren't going to be any toll booths. It's all by transponder or cameras taking a picture of your plate.

The problem of getting out before the storm is still the wind factor. We were shutting down bridges with 45 MPH winds gusting to 60 MPH. How much before the storm will this happen?

I agree with your operative word there. Should. But this is going to be a for profit road. Do we know for sure that they are going to let it be free?

I just haven't seen anything anywhere that would answer these questions. I guess that's my issue. How the heck are we supposed to support this thing if no one is telling anyone what's going on?

To me, there are just too many unanswered questions. Even the people that voted to support it can't answer them. Why would you say yes to this without knowing at least the basics?

I'd say that probably less than 25% of the voters in this County know anything at all about this road. That to me is not a good way to operate. That is not government in the sunshine.  

Mike Heemer

Ok

No toll booths, Not a poblem they still get a free pass. It's a state of emergency the government orders evac. you will not be charged

TRUTHHURTS

Please go to

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

and sign the petition for the Fair Tax Bill. Tell Congress to pass this Bill.

After Hurricane Andrew hit the Florida's Turnpike DID suspend tolls during the evacuation and the relief efforts..as to who paid for the suspended tolls....I do not have an aswer to that question....

Mr.Riley, this toll way you are talking about if I'm not wrong is owned and operated by the state of Florida. I don't think it's a private bizness. Mr. Heemer is referring to a possible completely privately run roadway where unless the state guarantees them so much money no incentive will be there to allow a freebie. No the simplest solution is to just wait til the state can afford to build it. I remember how much all the local folks and even the newspaper carried on about tolls when Hazouri brought it up. Everyone was happy when they were done in. I even still have my No Tolls button. I think I'll start wearing it again. This is why Iam puzzled as to why all of a sudden the paper is doing a 180 on the subject of tolls. I also find when powers that be embrace something the commoners don't want there has to be big money for a priveleged few somewhere. Its just human nature. 

ONE GUY,

 I appreciate where you are coming from and yes, I do believe that the state owns the turnpike. I really cannot fathom why the state just does not take over this venture and build the road themselves. I would think that if the state builds the road it there would be less "red tape" (yea right). Otherwise we will be looking at a mess with construction starting and stopping, construction companies "closing-up-shop" and other delays. I can deal with the state and their "work ethic" well before I can deal with some of the construction companies and their business parctices.

BESIDES, I live in Green Cove Springs and the LAST thing that I want to have to deal with is having to pay a toll for a trip to Saint Augustine.

As fer why the state doesn't take it over well I guess they just want to have it all. It's a notch on their belt to have it done even if they don't do it. They (the state and FDOT in particular) are claiming they can't afford it. But this has been dragging on for over 20 years. I just don't buy the story. And the real estate scam involved with it tells me too few folks are gonna reap too high profits off the backs of their neighbors. It downright cannabalistic economywise. These people wanting over triple value for their land seem to be rubbing their hands together to pick our pockets for their personal gain. All in all I'd love to see the rug pulled out from under them. Follow the money. I don't believe there has ever been a real estate deal like this that wasn't corrupt.

After reading the FDOT report on the outer beltway where it says that tolls can’t possibly pay for the construction, why would any sane investor sink any money into this project? Studying the map of the proposed route would be ample reason to balk at the investment too. This is 46 miles of road that actually leads nowhere. Any student of geometry knows that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. This road meanders from pillar to post, touching all the backwoods areas of undeveloped Clay county and does nothing to relieve the congestion of the populated areas already in place.

The big questions that I feel that all Clay county residents must ask themselves before they endorse this boondoggle is "How will this highway benefit me personally since I will have to pay for part of it? Are there alternatives to this project that will serve the public better and for less money? Does the proposed route go in the directions that I need to go regularly? Can my budget afford me the use of this road?"

Of the three counties that this highway will traverse, which county will reap more rewards? A beltway is supposed to relieve congestion in another area. Will this road relieve the congestion at I-10 and I-295? I-10 and I-95? I-295 and I-95? I don’t see how it will. Let’s face it, this road goes in the wrong direction to justify the enormous cost. My personal belief is that a bridge across the river in the area of Black Creek would have more impact than the whole length of the Outer Beltway. That’s my opinion, we welcome yours.

paths and roads should have been discussed 15-20 years ago, and being built in the past 5ys but no we are just now planning a road, beltway whatever, which won't even be finished until when mean while we still sit in the parking lots we call US 17 and Blanding Blvd. right!

Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle

paths and roads should have been discussed 15-20 years ago

Maxie that's the point. This beltway was discussed 20 years ago. This is how effective the state is. You will never have the best and the brightest working in a government office,, from FEMA to the post office to the FDOT. People with limitations of brainpower are only hired by government. (Those who are somewhat competent are in business for themselves or in a successful corporation, not that there are many of them left.) And to be successful they have to be dishonest.

Jaded? probably. Comes with age.

I really cannot fathom why the state just does not take over this venture and build the road themselves.

This is why. 'Locally Preferred' wanted the Pink route. That is the one route that the state couldn't afford to build the road on.

In order for the 'Turnpike' people to run it as a toll road it MUST be able to generate at least 50% of the cost of maintenance by year 12 after opening and 100% of the cost of maintenance by year 22 after opening.

The projected income for year 22 after opening is approximately 74% of the cost of maintenance. Using those numbers there would be about a $538M shortfall in funding.

I have yet to figure out why anyone would even think of investing in this project knowing that it will not support the cost of maintenance let alone have any money left over for a profit.

Well actually I can think of a reason. Someone is going to subsidize the maintenance or profit, or the tolls are going to be a LOT higher than the numbers the state was using to make their projections.

Pick your poison. 

Mike Heemer

Don't make the assumption that those in power who are deciding about the beltway care in anyway that it is not financially sound.  By the time that reality is upon us those that stand to profit will have gotten theirs and moved on.  Those holding political office are willing to bet on poor memories and displacement and their political patrons to keep them in office. 

As with most good things there is a down side to term limits.

With this particular project, by the time it gets built and has a chance to fail the people who supported it will have timed out and moved on to other things.

The ones that come after will be the ones catching the heat and trying to fix the problem.

Mike Heemer

Walt 

I agree with your statement... 

The big questions that I feel that all Clay county residents must ask themselves before they endorse this boondoggle is "How will this highway benefit me personally since I will have to pay for part of it? Are there alternatives to this project that will serve the public better and for less money? Does the proposed route go in the directions that I need to go regularly?

However, after looking at the map of the proposed route it appears that most of the "locals" that would benefit from the road have not moved here yet. Most of the road "meanders" through areas of our county that has not been developed yet. I know that there are "proposed" developements that would benefit from this road, but as I stated, these are Proposed developements. The LARGEST of all would be the Governors Landing (the Gustafson's property south of Green Cove Springs) which is a 5 phase endavor to include tons of commercial space and a proposed county park.

Here is the link to the "beltway" information.

http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/

I have seen the "plans" for Governor's landing and the beltway basically turns and cuts this property in-half. Additional to the beltway there is a proposal to "cut a road through" the property from the north end to the south end. I believe that if you have access to plans for the entire beltway project you can see what I am talking about.

joe

I think you mean Governor's Park.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072608/nec_309293838.shtml

Thanks, I stand corrected.....

joe