Future Transit Station

This has been going on for a while if this is the same situation. I think McGovern was involved with this before leaving his position as a Commissioner and after.

I then heard it was going to be at the College on College Drive. Now I guess its been changed back.

Funny they approved the purchase of this land without the proper zoning in place. Of course that's a easy fix. I'm not certain what the purpose will be of the public hearing  because it will not matter what the public has to say at that time. Because I'm certain the outcome of that vote.

The seller is motivated, for that sum of money you think. They should close in 6 weeks. I think they call that take the money and run. Poor taxpayers.

BCC minutes dated 2/20/2007

1. PRESENTATION BY THE COUNCIL ON AGING ON A TRANSIT PLAN

Patrick D. McGovern, Acting Executive Director of the Council on Aging, explained that he

is filling in until a replacement can be found for Renee Knight. He talked about the functions

performed by the Council on Aging and transportation needs in the future. He introduced

Christopher P. DeAnnuntis, William P. Morris, and Rob Gregg, with (CUTR) Center for

Urban Transportation Research.

Mr. Rob Gregg, CUTR, discussed the rapid growth in Clay County and went through a

lengthy PowerPoint presentation (See Attachment #1)) regarding transit options for the

future. CUTR representatives answered questions and made recommendations:

PHASE I - Develop a Steering Committee that would provide specifics of design and

submit a Service Development Proposal to FDOT.

PHASE II - Identify funding sources, operating responsibilities, facilities and equipment

requirements, public involvement program, and then implementation.

Mr. McGovern pointed out that Melissa Miller, Ex. Vice President of St. Johns River

Community College was present and in agreement with the recommendations regarding use

of the college site in the plan. He said JTA and FDOT are also very interested and 100% on

board. Lengthy discussion followed.

After discussion, Commissioner Conkey moved, seconded by Commissioner Stewart, and

carried 3-0, to DIRECT the County Manager to develop and be part of a Steering

Committee to study creation of a transit plan as discussed here and bring back a

recommendation to the Board as soon as possible.

Just as an aside, this looks like an ethics violation to me concerning our prior Commissioner approaching the board within 2 years of leaving office. But that's just my thoughts.

Great information. My guess would be that this is the same conversation.

At 28.12 acres this should be one doozy of a transit station.

I sure hope I can find a buyer like this when I put my brother's land in Milton up for sale. It's assessed at just under $6K an acre. At these rates I should be able to get at least $30K an acre don't you think?

I think you are probably right about the public hearing. I think I saw that the closing was already set for some time in November.

I guess we need this more than we need the CCSO presence. 

Political advertisement paid for and approved by, Mike Heemer, write-in, for Commission Chair.

Well your pick of the parcel looks better than the one I thought it was. It's a parcel that is 28.5 and has an assessed value of 5,700.00, yes that correct no typo there.

Yes you have to wonder about the State of the Art dog facilities with our capture and kill policy, and transit property and we cut Public Safety. Yes I think we are going in the right direction in Clay County.

I think another name for a transit station is a high tech bus stop.

Regardless of the details of the real estate transaction, I think it would be a fantastic addition to Clay county's lackluster public services infrastructure. If commuter rail service was offered to Jacksonville it would relieve congestion on Blanding and 17. It would enable our residents to to save time and money on transportation. Doctors Inlet is an ideal location for this facility, allowing easy access from Middleburg, Fleming Island and many points in the mid - Clay county region.

I certainly hope that this becomes part of the landscape in our community, it will be an asset to our citizens.

PJ

Mike, Et Al.

What a graat deal!  I just did a table-top appraisal of this parcel, assuming you found the correct piece. Property ID 008973-000-00.

A common error made by most people is they take the value given by the property appraisal as the actual value.

The reality is that most of us are not taxed at the TRUE value of our properties and thank goodness for that.

The price being paid by the county is well within the current market value for commercial property in that area.  I have sold commercial in that area. 

As far as location for a rail station it is excellent.  The parcel size is excellent for the needed parking.  The relief to our roads is excellent!

This, unike the Beltway is a WIN-WIN-WIN!  Kudos to our commissioners

JD!

JD;

I agree that assessed and appraised values are certainly not the same. I just thought they'd be a little closer than a factor of 7.

As far as location for a rail station it is excellent.  The parcel size is excellent for the needed parking.  The relief to our roads is excellent!

If commuter rail service was offered to Jacksonville it would relieve congestion on Blanding and 17.

JD, do you and PEJ know something I don't about this station? I didn't see anything to indicate that this is going to be a rail station. The only thing I see about rail is its proximity to the CSX tracks.

One reason I hesitate to think that it has anything to do with rail is the information that Angela provided about using the College on College Dr.

From what I can see the land the College owns doesn't extend to the tracks. From the looks of things on the Property Appraiser's site the land behind the College that abuts the CSX tracks belongs to FDOT. 

In addition to getting some information on why the big rush to spend $5M I was interested in finding out what this future transit station was all about? Does anyone know when this 'public hearing' is going to take place? I haven't seen that announcement. I'd be interested in attending and learning more about the actual type of station they are talking about. 

JD, for me, I wouldn't be handing out any kudos just yet. It could be a great deal but then again I'm just a little pessimistic when it comes to our government making sound financial decisions.

Political advertisement paid for and approved by, Mike Heemer, write-in, for Commission Chair.

Mike,

I find it amusing that your recent posts assume there was no due diligence on the part of the County before agreeing to purchase this piece of property.

First, we don't know the asking price for that property. It could be a steal based on what the seller wanted for it.

Secondly, standard operating procedure would dictate the county perform an appraisal on the property to ensure the purchase price was in line with other commercial properties in the area. I don't see Mr. Behring bringing a proposal before the Board without having done his due diligence. It's as simple as that. There's no conspiracy to defraud the taxpayer here...

I support JD and PJ in that purchasing this property now provides a transportation opportunity in the future when that property will probably be twice as much as what we paid for it now.

Karen Lake

In the words of Fran Moss assistant county attorney at the BCC meeting. "This is a bit pricey". I'm glad to see that a few of us feel the same way too.

For the readers of the blogs meet Fran Moss your assistant county attorney.

"Her previous work -- though not in government -- had prepared her for her new job by giving her a superior ability to research a subject."

"It's her job to advise the county commissioners -- and most anyone in a position of significance in county government -- on policy-making decisions and implementing those policies. Issues she could encounter include ethics, constitutional law, land use, real estate acquisition and sale, planning and zoning and public employment -- to name a few. She analyzes legal controversies and makes a recommendation for their disposition. She writes ordinances for the commission's approval."

Source http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/011406/nec_20803900.shtml

Anybody know what 008970-001-00 is or used to be, it is owned by the Clay County Board of County Commissioners.  This parcel is 30 acres, valued at $810K.  The old dump is somewhere right around this area.  The parcel below this piece, #009331-001-00 is also owned by the CCBOCC  valued at only $80,970, this parcel is 53 acres.  A lot must go in to the value of a piece of property, things i don't know about.

The property that has currently been agreed to be purchased at least in my opinion and my knowledge from the property appraiser may not be a coup to defraud the taxpayers, but so far from what i know, it's no steal. 

The ideology of having a transit station is good and should work well considering people will actually use the service to go either to and from work, or to events in jax. and other surrounding areas.  But i don't see that happening.  This is not NYC or DC, things are slightly more spread out in jax and clay county and walking or riding the bus from the drop point probably won't be popular.  Unless, there is some grand plan yet to be unveiled and i can then insert my foot into my mouth, this is a wash so far.

Hi Mike, et al,

The property being dicussed is proposed as a commuter rail station/park-n-ride lot for future commuter rail using the existing CSX rail line.  I've been to a couple of meetings held by the JTA re this issue.  Another public meeting is scheduled for Oct. 15, 5:30 pm, JTA office downtown Jax.  Public welcome.

Hopefully, commuter rail will make the leap from planning to actually providing transportation in the not-so-distant future.  As discussed in many transportation conversations, this is a regional effort and involves at least Duval, Clay, Putnam (maybe others - I can't recall).

A little aside: I'm also participating in a Regional Visioning process that is laying the groundwork for Comp Plan-type planning for 2030-2050.  The seeds for how to deal with future growth are being planted now.  "Stakeholders" who are participating come from a variety of backgrounds, geographical areas, and motivations.  Developers, engineers, environmentalists, concerned citizens, etc.  The next meeting of this group will be held Oct. 21, 3:30-5:30 at the Main Library in Jacksonville (303 N. Laura Street).  This is only the 2nd meeting of this group, and they have a long way to go.  If you are interested in participating, the meetings are open to the public.  If nothing else, it may give some folks something else to criticize and find fault with.

"Damned if you do, damned if you don't."  You sure you want that job Mike?

Bill.

Ahh Karen, thank you. Always glad to serve. It's good to be able to provide an opportunity for someone to laugh. Humor is a good thing.

As for due diligence by the Commissioners: after the illegal dumping fiasco and the Commissioners unconditional support for spending $77K an acre for the land to build the abomination they want everyone to think is a beltway, you'll have to pardon me if I don't have much faith in their performance of due diligence.

From what I've seen, I'd do a better job of due diligence when trying to decide if I should go all-in on a pat hand royal straight flush.

But hey, when it isn't real money and it isn't yours if it was, what's the big deal right?

I don't think anyone said anything about defrauding the tax payer. Defrauding would be if they said they were going to pay 5 and paid 6.

What I said was the price seemed high and perhaps if we could cut the price on this purchase maybe we could use that savings to better fund the CCSO. A prospect I find much more appealing than a piece of land sitting empty for who knows how long waiting for a future transit station of some sort.

It goes back to wants and needs. Required and nice to have. Perhaps you find the possibility of cutting services at the CCSO humorous but I don't. Plus we have to give up about $10K per year in property tax. Now that number may not be a lot when you are talking $5M but it would buy a whole lot of dog and cat food at CCAC don't you think?

Political advertisement paid for and approved by, Mike Heemer, write-in, for Commission Chair.

Thanks for the info Bax. I would agree that commuter rail might be a good thing for the area. The biggest issue I would think is where does it run to and is it convenient to the user.

I'm sure that's what you guys are looking at and studying.

I'm still thinking the price is a bit high for that piece of land. But I'd rather see our money spent on that type of endeavor than the tollway. I can at least envision a possible return on investment there. I can't see that tollway providing any benefit to the average citizen in Clay County.    

As for wanting the job? Bring it on. I've already been called an idiot a few times out here so I might as well get paid for it. 

Though I still want to see the CTLAC amendment to do away with the +2 make the ballot and get passed. I am not convinced that we need more government than we already have. But if we are going to have the elected Chair, I'm the best man for the job.

I'm also hoping that the amendment to cut the salary to $37K passes.

Political advertisement paid for and approved by, Mike Heemer, write-in, for Commission Chair.

I like your confidence.  I'm still trying to figure out why you're really running.  I know, I know - the whole "every one should have an opponent thing", but if you really, I mean really, wanted the job, I don't know how you could oppose the position itself.  But hey - I'm just one guy.  I too think the salary needs to be reduced, I just think it should include some sort of COLA increase.  But - we can't always get what we want.  Maybe I should sue someone. Would that be a SLAPP?

I know that often I probably come across as a pro-government naif with rose colored glasses on, but in reality I'm as skeptical as most average people.  I admit I don't see a scandal or ineptitude in every government action, but many things the government (local/state/federal) is involved in smell bad, and look even worse.  Often the public gets a few juicy tidbits and jumps to all sorts of nefarious conclusions when really the deal, whatever the deal is, is completely legit, well researched, and completely responsible. (Yes lily - I really believe that.)

Now - this $700B bailout fails the test, to me.  Personally, I'm glad it was voted down.  We all know something will get passed, but nobody deserves that big of an open check book.

(PS - sorry for wandering all over the place.)

Mike,

You bring up a great point. The county agreed to pay $5 million for approximately 23 acres for a transporation hub which could lead to a light rail station. This represents 1.5% of the total $333.3 million county budget.

The Sheriff stands to lose $1.7 million of an approved $47.8 million budget. That represents a 3.5% decrease in his budget.

You want to talk X's and O's? That's what being a member of the Commission is all about. Hard choices. A purchase today for a transportation hub may pay millions tomorrow. And yet, the Sheriff doesn't want to pull men and women off the street because he/or she is experiencing a shortfall. Public safety suffers.

It's fourth down and three...do you punt or go for it?

Karen Lake

I like your confidence.  I'm still trying to figure out why you're really running.  I know, I know - the whole "every one should have an opponent thing", but if you really, I mean really, wanted the job, I don't know how you could oppose the position itself.  But hey - I'm just one guy. 

Bax, I've tried a couple of different answers to this so let's try the 'blow my own horn' answer. I'm doing my best to convince the boss that this is not a good idea. But if the boss decides that it is and this position is going to exist then the first person in that seat needs to be the best person for the job.

Of the two choices available, the best choice is me. If the job is going to exist then I want the boss (the citizens of Clay County) to be able to say 'I told you this was a good idea'. I'm the one that can do that.

When you get right down to it, this was not even the boss's idea. It was concocted at least in part by one of the people running for the position with the help of at least three people that are going above and beyond to convince the voters that it really was their idea and that it was a good one.

One of those is even trying to make sure that the voters don't have a chance to vote on it again. Is that perhaps because some people are concerned that after having had some time to think it over the boss might decide that perhaps they have changed their mind and don't really want two more Commissioners?

Am I going to make everyone happy? Heck no! But at the end of 4 years that job will still be the 'ceremonial representative' of Clay County. Not a 'weak executive' or anything else the boss did not want it to be.

I've got the time, talent, capability and desire to do this job if it exists. If it doesn't, I'm not going to be upset that it was done away with because the boss decided that those saying it was a bad idea were right.

Perhaps that still doesn't compute with you, I don't know. It is a philosophy I learned in the Navy. You may not always agree with the boss but when it comes time to do the job you find the best person to do that job so that it gets done the best it can be and you don't try to change it into something else.

You do the job because it is there to do not because it is going to get you something later on done the line. That is a hard concept for some to understand but I think the vast majority understand it just fine. They may not express it in just the same way but the ideal is there that this is the type of leader they would like to have.

And one last toot of that horn. Bax, that is the kind of leader I am. That's the kind of leadership that the boss can expect from me.

Political advertisement paid for and approved by, Mike Heemer, write-in, for Commission Chair.

Currently when Jacksonville is known as the murder capital of Florida. With the approval of a large amount of law enforcement in Duval to be hired to combat that problem.

The Sheriff's statement you don't stop crime it just moves somewhere else. Says now is not the time to be investing in a "bit pricey" piece of property for some future endeavor that will require a lot of additional funding in the coming years to see happen. If it even does happen. Duval's city limits is a big area and just like Foxx said not NYC or DC. I think they need to be showing the citizens some grand plan of moving people before spending that kind of money on this pricey property.

In the climate of millions of foreclosures and bailouts and reduced prices for homes. We pay this kind of money for property.

The Sheriff's decision to place additional law enforcement at the North end of the county is badly needed without the additional law enforcement in Duval. However, Oakleaf and that area is a high crime area that borders Duval too. It will need the same protections as well. I don't think this is the time to asked the Sheriff to hold the line on protecting the citizens. Unless the Commissioners would like to just absorb the problems of Duval.

Besides if you want to talk about transportation. This is the second time I've seen the potential to see that amount of money to secure the right of ways for the College Drive North extension. First with the 9 million to clean up this dumping fiasco and now  a state of the art animal control facility (3 million) and a piece of pricey property (5 million) that could be used to help the citizens of the county with transportation needs. The State would match the money for the right aways if the county comes up with 9 million they match the 9 million. That's 18 million which is what is projected to be the cost to secure those right aways.

Punt or go for it.

Instead of football, it's the game of transportation.  What would Jack Del Rio do?

If he were coaching the Jags, with a huge offensive line and a powerful running game, the decision might be easier.  In the transportation game, Clay County's offensive line (special interests and lobbyists nearly anonymously doing the dirty clearing all the obstacles out of the way) is Pro Bowl quality, but our running backs (elected officials on the BCC) have a history of fumbling on important plays.  So, what would Jack Del Rio do?  Punt or go for it on fourth and three?

It's good to look at things as a percentage, to make sure no one loses the overall perspective.  It can keep each individual issue from becoming overly-important.  But you can't rely on that perspective alone, either.  Without elected officials treating each individual decision to spend each individual tax dollar as if it's my personal money, they aren't doing a head coach's job.

Unless they can consider not just the down and distance, but the scoreboard, the clock, field position, the offensive coordinator's recommended play, the scouting report, and the team's performance in the game up until this fourth and three situation, they aren't doing what I elect them to do.

In this case, a future commuter rail station, I think Del Rio would go for it.  It's a question of which play he'd call.  I agree with Heemer that there seems to be a less expensive play County County taxpayers can run.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Karen, let's take a look at your 4th and 3 question from a different angle. How did you get to that point? When you started, your goal was to move the ball 10 yards.

If you are at 4th and three it means you have failed to meet your goal three times. 4th and 3 is for rookies. You keep getting to 4th and three you are not doing your job.

Let me give you some of my thoughts on how we got to where we are. It was coming up to election time and a couple of Commissioners needed a check mark in their resume that they figured would get them elected.

What's the biggest check mark you can get most of the time? A tax cut! So here we go, we get 'the biggest tax cut Clay County has ever seen'. Now here we are at budget crunch time (and the election was supposed to be over in August) and we have to start paying the piper for those decisions. 

That Karen was one of the failures to meet the goal. Some modicum of long range planning would have seen this writing on the wall. But no, they sacrificed the future for short term glory. Kind of like the tollway is going to do. 

But they don't want the current lack of money to pay the bills to stop them from buying what they want. So how do you fix that problem?  

You make someone else pony up the money so that you don't have to embarrass yourself by telling the owner of that land that you're not buying it this year because you don't have enough money.

So let's make the Sheriff look like the bad guy that is spending too much. Let's make sure that everyone thinks he's not doing his part to be a team player.

It is beyond my comprehension that you would actually think that this 'future transit station' is more important than LEOs on the street. That piece of land is not going to prevent or solve one crime. If it means 1 person gets robbed or beaten that 1 Officer could have prevented then I'd say that 29 acres of land was a bad deal.

I can see where it might serve a purpose at some time in the future but Karen, it is going to be years (if ever) before we even come close to light rail in this area. I'd rather see them put money into a reserve fund and make a plan to buy it in 2 to 3 years than to cut LEOs to buy it now.

This piece of land is just the tip of our problems. It just happens to be the subject of this conversation. The board has been operating like this for years. What it needs is someone to shake up the status quo and put some real leadership and fiscal responsibility in place.

Punt or go for it? How about this? The Sheriff gets $1.5M and we tell the owner of the land he gets $3.5M for the land. If he doesn't like that price he is welcome to leave it on the market for $5M and hope someone else buys it. You put away the $3.5M and add some more to it next year to buy the land at $5m because in today's market it isn't going any place any time soon and it might only cost $4.5M next year.

Then you stop acting like a rookie and quit getting yourself in those 4th and 3 situations. Act like a real contender instead of a second rate team.

It's going to be interesting to see how they manage to cover the cost of the lost revenue from the property tax they want to give up for the tollway. Can you say tax increase?

I think the tax payers are getting tired of the same cats sucking up the cream and leaving the skim milk for everyone else.  

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Is this National Dingbat Day on the blogs.  Winn just informed me that if we give every American 1 Million dollars it would solve all our problems, except that it cost more than 700 Billion to do so.   And Karen is trying to convince me through percentages that a 5 million dollar deal on property worth no more in my mind at the current time 1.5 million maybe, that a good call was made for the future all while not even knowing if citizens will give up the convience of their own vehicle for public transportation that they would have to continue to pay for, this is no different than a tollway road. 

I think we should continue to look into vehicles that can operate using lower fuel amounts or no fuel, lower emissions and fail this current tollway beltway.  Elect new commissioners who truely have the citizen in mind and will actually listen to the citizen.  Maybe our five new commissioners will do so.

Mike - I follow your explanation.  Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me, and others.  Good luck.

Foxx,finder or any one how am i to repay my part of 500 3500 or whatever? I already owe the irs and on 10.00 an hour i can barelly take care of my own family yet alone wall streets.So either way we go the normal joe is fubared.Can i borrow $100mil to not pay taxes on then maybe the president will wipe the 4 gs i owe them from anyone??? Foxx,Truthhurts?? okie dokie i guess i will make my money on this one bet any takers? BY november 4th we will be officially in a depression i bet 1.5 trillion alex.

good nite boys and girls

Mike:

The City of Knoxville, Tennessee wanted to run a mass transit bus out to the suburbs outside the city limits, but instead of spending taxpayer dollars to buy land, they worked out an agreement with a shopping center that the city bus would pick up and drop off passengers in their suburban shopping center parking lot at no charge to the city, the taxpayers or the bus passengers.

The merchants picked up some extra business with riders running in the Winn Dixie to pick up something on the way home after exiting the bus, and the landlord had happy tenants.  And the taxpayers got the benefit of creative thinking and lower taxes!

i suggested this in my campaign, but no one seemed to like the idea....

 Tom Platt

"The power to tax is the power to destroy."  Marbury v. Madison, Justice John Marshall, 1815